Hospital Forces Lesbian to Die Alone; Judge Gives Stamp of Approval
September 30, 2009
U.S. District Judge Adalberto Jordan dismissed a lawsuit yesterday, essentially finding that the Jackson Memorial Hospital was within its rights to leave a dying woman alone while denying her present and immediate family permission to visit her, be updated on her condition, or even to provide the hospital with medically necessary information.
Named in the now-dismissed suit were Jackson social worker Garnett Frederick and attending physicians Alois Zauner and Carlos Alberto Cruz, who made the decision not to allow Janice Langbehn, Lisa Pond’s partner, to have standard family access to information, even after receiving durable Power of Attorney and a Living Will naming Janice as legal guardian with authority to make end-of-life decisions.
Jennifer Piedra, spokesperson for Jackson Memorial, released this statement after Judge Jordan said they could continue to turn [lesbian and gay] people away from their dying family members:
We have always believed and known that the staff at Jackson treats everyone equally, and that their main concern is the well-being of the patients in their care. At Jackson Health System, we believe in a culture of inclusion. For more than 90 years, the institution has taken great pride in serving everyone who enters its doors, regardless of race, creed, religious beliefs or sexual orientation. We also employ a very diverse workforce, one that mirrors the community we serve.
Jackson will continue to work with the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community to ensure that everyone knows they are welcome at all of our facilities, where they will receive the highest quality of medical care.
Yes, that sounds perfectly reasonable. If only there were a way to judge their words against their actions. Oh wait, there is, and guess what! They’re completely and plainly full of it! In March, Janice told the story of Lisa’s final hours:
On February 18, 2007, Lisa Pond, my partner of nearly 18 years and 3 of our 4 adopted children: Danielle, David and Katie were on board the Rfamily cruise preparing to set sail. Before leaving port, Lisa suddenly collapsed while watching the children play basketball. The kids were banging on the stateroom door saying, “Mommy was hurt!” I opened the door, and took one look at Lisa and knew the situation was very serious. As a medical social worker for many years, I have seen people in critical condition. I knew that my life partner was gravely ill. As the ship was about to leave, we had no choice but to seek medical help in an unfamiliar city. After local medics arrived, we hurried off the ship to the closest hospital in Miami, Ryder Trauma Center at Jackson Memorial Hospital.
As Lisa was put into the ambulance I had no idea when she signed “I love you” to the kids and I it would be the last time I would see her beautiful blue eyes. We arrived at the trauma center minutes before her ambulance. I tried to follow her gurney into the trauma area and was stopped by the trauma team and told to go to the waiting room. The kids and I did as we were told.
We arrived shortly after 3:30 in the afternoon, around 4pm, a social worker came out and introduced himself as Garnett Frederick and said, “you are in an anti-gay city and state. And without a health care proxy you will not see Lisa nor know of her condition”. He then turned to leave; I stopped him and asked for his fax number because I said “we had legal Durable Powers of Attorney” and would get him the documents. Within a short time of meeting this social worker, I contacted friends in Lacey, WA, our hometown, who went to our house and faxed the legal documents required for me to make medical decisions for Lisa.
I never imagined as I paced that tiny waiting room that I would not see Lisa’s bright blue eyes again or hold her warm, loving hands. Feeling helpless as I continued to wait, I attempted to sneak back into the trauma bay but all the doors to the trauma area had key codes, preventing me from entering. Sitting alone with our luggage, our children and my thoughts, I watched numbly as other families were invited back into the trauma center to visit with loved ones. I was still waiting to hear what was happening with Lisa, realizing as the time passed that I was not being allowed to see her and if the social worker’s words were any indication it was because we were gay.
Anger, despair and disbelief wracked my brain as I tried to figure out a way to find out what was going on with Lisa. I finally thought to call our family doctor back in Olympia (on a Sunday afternoon at home) to see if she could find out what was happening. While on the phone with our doctor in Olympia, a surgeon appeared. The surgeon told me that Lisa, who was just 39 years old, had suffered massive bleeding in her brain from an aneurysm.
A short while later, two more surgeons appeared and explained the massive bleed in Lisa’s brain gave her little chance to survive and if she did it would be in a persistent vegetative state. Lisa had made me promise to her over and over in our 18 years together to never allow this to happen to her. I let the surgeons know Lisa wishes, which were also spelled out in her Living Wills and Advance Directive. I was then promised by the doctors that I would be brought to see Lisa as “soon as she was cleaned up”. At that point all life saving measures ceased and I asked that she be prepared for organ donation.
Yet, the children and I continued to wait and wait. A Hospital Chaplain appeared and asked if I wanted to pray and I looked at her dumbfounded as if I hadn’t already been doing that for over four hours. I immediately asked for a Catholic Priest to perform Lisa’s Last rites. A short time later, a Catholic priest escorted me back to recite the Last Rites and it was my first time in nearly 5hrs of seeing Lisa. After seeing her I knew the children needed to see her immediately and be able to say their goodbyes and begin the grieving process. Yet the priest escorted me back out to the waiting room. Where I was faced with the young faces of our beautiful children to explain “other mommy” was going to heaven.
Lisa Marie Pond
1967 - 2007
I continued to assert myself over the ensuing hours again that we needed to be with Lisa. I even showed the Admitting clerk the children’s birth certificates with both Lisa and my name on them… and said if you won’t let me back, let her children be with her. I was told they were “too young”. I thought how old do you need to be to say goodbye to your mother?
In nearly eight hours, Lisa lay at Ryder Trauma Center moving toward brain death – completely alone and I continue to this day to feel like a failure for not being there to hold her hand to tell her how much we loved her, to comfort her and to sign in her hand “I love you”. All my pleas fell on deaf ears.
Lisa’s sister arrived driving straight from Jacksonville as soon as I knew Lisa would not survive. She announced who she was and I was at her side staring at the same person who had been denying me access all those hours. It was only then that I was told Lisa had been moved almost an hour earlier to ICU… and the hospital just kept the children and I waiting in the same waiting room, where Lisa was not even at.
On Monday February 19, 2007 at 10:45am, Lisa was officially declared Brain Dead. It was then that individuals from the Organ Donation Agency became involved (who I must point out are completely separate professionals from Jackson Memorial Hospital) that I finally was validated as Lisa’s spouse. They asked me which organs she wanted donated.
The Langbehn-Pond Family
Explain to me again how a straight couple would have been split like this even for five minutes, let alone hours. Explain to me how three children would have been kept from their straight mother’s side, how a dying straight person would be treated in such an cruel, vicious, I-don’t-have-enough-words way.
Tell me again why the word “marriage” doesn’t matter. Tell me again that we should just be patient and not rock the boat.
Better yet, tell it to Lisa Pond’s partner and children.
Yesterday a judge shrugged his shoulders and left LGBT victims unprotected. When will Americans demand better? Will Americans demand better?
(Please read the comment tips before joining the conversation.)
This is seriously the most disturbing thing I have heard in a long time…it brings tears to my eyes. When are Americans going to realize love is love and gender/sex/color/race have no boundries and we should ALL BE FREE to Love whom we want. My thoughts and prayers are with this family and with all the close minded people that robbed this family of the opportunity to say goodbye…perhaps with enough prayers they will see the light.
This is nothing short of an abomination. Hopefully many, many 'ordinary' people will hear about this, and start telling the anti-family bigots who allow things like this to happen every day, who vote in favour of things like this, to pull their heads in and let all kinds of families live in peace.
I had to read it again. I'm am truly sickened, yet incredibly not surprised. I have heard people have the same sentiment time and again all the while claiming to be the ones who are morally right…. I think we need to educate the masses that religion does not equate morality.
A couple that was single would have been treated better than this poor couple. I can't believe someone that works at a hospital, would say to a critically ill persons family that they are in an anti-gay state!
Disgusting ,are we a third world country?Change needs to come and fast we forget that we are Americans!
I wish I could say I understood it, I really do. Hopefully this story will be a bridge to helping people understand that no, 'civil unions' or 'domestic partnerships' or whatever other term they come up with, is not the same as marriage. People universally understand what a spouse is and act accordingly, and new terms require new definitions. As Ms. Pond and Ms. Langbehn found out, we don't have time for people to figure out what it all means.
it's unbelievable that something like this could happen in this day & age. we are supposed to be more advanced but it seems like we have become more barbaric. it's sickening.
There should be consequences for ignoring a valid documents which should have assurred this doesn't happen. If possible, Sue them!! Sue them hard!
If this Judge is married and has children, God forbid his wife ever has to go through what Lisa went through. Even more so, I bet he wouldn't allow himself to go through what Janice and the children went through.
The Judge should be taken from The Bar and never allowed to practice again. He should be branded a disgrace to society. Well, as far as I am concerned he IS a disgrace, not only to society, but to every Human Being, Animal and living thing.
I tried to keep it polite an use the word disgrace. I can think of a lot stronger things to use for him.
District Judge Adalberto Jordan and the obstructive, Unreasonable, Thoughtless hospital staff….May you all ROT IN HELL:
Best wishes for the future Janice. Great looking kids by the way.
Steve
That is simply heartbreaking. And the fact that legal documents were blatently ignored is dispicable.
That's the most disturbing story I've read in some time.
This has to be the most Appauling and Disturbing story of horrible terrorizing personal treatment I have ever read. I work in a hospital and I can assure my hospital would never allow something like this to take place. Yes, hospitals have rules, and the first rule is to treat every person with dignity and respect, where the hell did that happen for this couple. IT DID NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I cant even imagine the pain and turmoil that Janice had to endure in the waiting room while behind a wall, her partnet lay dying, ALONE! My God what has become of our country, that we would treat a fellow human being in such a disgusting way, and that the courts would allow if not advocate for such behavior? Janice, you and your lovely kids are in my prayers.
it would be great if civil unions and domestic partnerships were better defined. however, it is the vagueness of their definition which allows couples to be more financially and bureaucratically independent of one another. the issue boils down to that of marriage. if the couple was allowed to marry, this situation would never have happened. unless they chose to enter into a domestic partnership all along. . .
Stories like this make me glad that I live in Massachusetts where same-sex marriage is legal and I am not treated like a second class citizen because of who I am and who I love. What happened to this family is just disgusting. Their attempts to protect themselves by creating legal documentation failed. Even if they came from a state with Civil Unions it wouldn't have mattered. Separate but equal is inherently unequal. I hope that the rest of the country follows the lead of New England and Iowa and legalizes same-sex marriage and acknowledges the importance of all families.
I am beyond dumbfounded. What a nasty and evil way to have treated this family – and I can't even begin to say what I think about the judge in the case (well, not without swearing, anyway). Shame on you all. My thoughts are with the family.
The fact that the documents were ignored is also criminal. I think it's a fairly serious crime for a hospital to ignore a living will.
The judge should be recalled, disbarred and pilloried. Absolutely without question one of the grossest transgressions within the legal community by a “judge.”
As for the hospital…I am utterly speechless at the total disregard, the complete ignorance of simple human decency.
This is certainly one of the most horrific stories I have read in such a long time. I am totally in shock that anyone would even treat human beings this way. The laws MUST change. My heartfelt sympathy to Lisa and their children. No one should be left alone during the death process. It simply breaks my heart.
This is certainly one of the most horrific stories I have read in such a long time. I am totally in shock that anyone would even treat human beings this way. The laws MUST change. My heartfelt sympathy to Lisa and their children. No one should be left alone during the death process. It simply breaks my heart.
i had similar experiences even in MA. ignorance and the health care system go hand in hand, so does the ongoing minimizing of all of this activity by those in charge. shame on them.
States that are anti-gay should be boycotted and the reason for not booking told to travel professionals. As the word gets out maybe the economic loss to the state will put a balance against this kind of hatred.
The hospital staff should realize that most sane people would be happy killing, rather than merely suing, the offending parties.
My partner just died, barely out of my reach and the hospital staff kept me apart from them? Not much left to lose. And the hospital jackasses would deserve it.
This is absolutely unforgivable. How could this ruling have been made under any system that purports to treat everyone equally? And for Jackson Memorial to do this is unbelievable. For anyone else, like me, who believes that they should hear from people who think this behavior is unacceptable, unbelievable, and unforgivable, their Patient Relations can be reached at 305-585-7341.
It is imperative that those of us who are not gay, and therefore cannot be subjected to this sort of discrimination, stand up and fight for our gay brothers and sisters. This is our fight too. Some people are NOT more equal than others, and we must demand that equality be provided to everyone, all the time, regardless of the color of their skin, their choice (or non) of gods, and whom they love.
To be forced to die alone because of your choice of partners is obscene. We cannot allow decisions like this to go unchallenged.
Lamda Legal is currently the attorney of record for this case. They also do a lot of other good legal work for the community. They have until Oct 16 to file further legal action in this case. Perhaps consider donating to them to help their legal fights: http://www.lambdalegal.org/take-action/
I wonder if Lisa and Janice had a civil union/domestic partner status? I think this article just refers to them as “partners.” Or, if they did, is it the case that Florida doesn't recognize CUs from other states? Just trying to understand the legal reasoning, because they were allowed to see Lisa after her sister arrived: “Ms. Pond’s sister and brother-in-law arrived from Jacksonville at around 11:30 p.m. Ryder personnel recognized them as Ms. Pond’s relatives, informed them of the transfer, and gave them
Ms. Pond’s new room number. Ms. Langbehn and her children were able to visit with Ms. Pond at
this time. Significantly, however, the plaintiffs do not allege that they were denied access to, or
visitation with, Ms. Pond after her transfer and before her death.” So I wonder why, if Janice and Lisa were partners legally, Janice would not have been recognized as family. Gonna go research this some more.
Oh God, Florida, GROW UP!
I'm so sorry that this has happened to your family.
To me, this is not a political argument as much as it is inhumane. This is a mirror of the state of humanity people currently exercise (at least in Florida). To not even let the children see their mother, even, that is just downright MEAN.
I'm an expat right now out in South Korea, and it's interesting to see how the hospitals out here do care. Here they let anyone who loves and cares for you to be at your side all the time, if you want. They even have little cots for visitors to stay overnight in!
If I were to ever be sick or ill, I would want to be in Korea or Japan, certainly not the USA. I got sick out here and my friends stayed with me 24-7, and the hospital ENCOURAGES it. They know it helps people get well and helps those who are worried and care about the sick and dying – even if you are just a coworker.
Florida, you should be ashamed of yourselves.
My impression is that they were not civil unioned or whatever is legal in Washington. I doubt Florida law would have recognized it, though. That's the big problem with the patchwork system that we have now. Having so many different standards leads to confusion from everyone.
I do know that Janice had Durable Powers of Attorney and a living will for Lisa, and she had birth certificates for all of the children that list both as the kids' parents. As in, all of those things were physically present and still hospital personnel treated Lisa's family like strangers.
As human beings we should all understand the rights to compassion and love. Judging a person in relation to one's self has done nothing but wreck havoc on our world (i.e. slavery, Nazi acts, Genocide -in all forms) is a pure example of how [we] American and other governments make massive illogical reasons for not abiding by the foundation we were all taught in school “do unto other's as you would have them do unto you.” I cannot grasp the disgust that OUR nation should feel in disrupting and depriving a family of their last goodbyes. Love is love and simple because it's not 'your' love it doesnt give you the right in any context to take it away with as much as a second thought. Humanity has completely left America and it is showing in ten-fold. I have to say I'm not proud to live in this “great” nation. Many of you should revaluate your ignorance and put yourself in that position, instead of turning a blind eye as so many selfish AMERICANS have on multiple other issues.
My oh my this just distgusts me! I am a nurse and could never even fathom keeping ANYONE from my patient as they were dying, partner, sister, cousing, frien, grandparents, whoever the person is, if that is who the patient needs, thats who they need. What a blatant disrespect for the patient and her family. It makes me sick and saddens my heart this happened to this family. I'm so sorry, my thoughts are with you.
Thank you, Matt, for getting the Langbehn-Pond family's story out there- I found it on a friend's facebook page and re-posted it myself. The story is powerful and heartbreaking, yet also reminds me that we can't sit idly by. My thoughts go out to the Langbehn-Pond family in this time of great pain.
Years ago my uncle lie brain dead in a New York hospital. Attendents were still taking his heart beat–and keeping him on numerous expensive support devices. My uncle was a millionaire with a male partner of 40 years. Because his partner had no rights I had to make my mother, his sister, sign documents to take him off life support with the direct consent of his partner. Not only would the hospital have kept him on life support at an enormous cost, but his partner of 40 years was completely helpless to do anything.
“Straight” folks who are together for even 7 years are considered to have a common law marriage. Personal relationships, especially with children, are too fragile to be up for legal interpertation by prejudiced, homophobic states. There has to be federal laws.
All I can think of saying is heartless bastards! I would say I hope someday they don't get to be with who they love when they are dying, but then I wouldn't want that for their spouses.
What the hell Florida
Seriously
I can not stop crying! I wish I could just hug this family…this is so wrong! What can I do, I want to do something. No one deserves to be treated this way. How can people be that cruel??? I want the The Langbehn-Pond Family to know that there are people out there who know this happened to them and that it is not okay that what happened to them can make a difference for future families in a similar situation.
*still sobbing*
There are NO words to adequately describe how sickening this is! This institution, and sadly numerous others, would have bent over BACKWARDS had it been a newly-wed, hererosexual couple! Aaaahhh, the “sanctity” of marriage. Im totally ENRAGED by this and literally heartbroken for this family. :(
I will say that i totally 100% agree with your comment. It makes me sick that they treated this poor woman and her family this way.
God created a very pretty lady, Lisa! God granted her three beautiful children! God love the family! God love you! Those people who did crude to you will receive “Karma” someday! I am very sorry and eyes tears front of God, Why to Lisa? All I can say is I love you and the children! Love is very powerful!
Trying to get a hold of somebody to ask. Beeper numbers seem to be disconnected though, and it's after hours.
http://www.jhsmiami.org/body.cfm?id=9401
Dear Matt,we are NOT suppouse to jurge anyone: religion,personal preferenses,country,status of any kind WE as human are here on Eart to help and support each other.My hard is hurting for the family loosing a loved one:partner ,mother,sister …..My good vibes are whit the kidis and a single mom racing them I know how hard can be.Sanding my love to all of you good people
Mony
What good is a Power of Attorney if it isn't upheld regardless of who has it?!?! My mother has a Power of Attorney for my son should anything happen while she is babysitting. No one would dare to say that she could not be at my son's side in a hospital. Why don't people understand that marriage is not diminished because it is open to more people. Rather the idea of marriage is strengthened when it includes all people who love and cherish another, regardless of sex. I am straight and I would be honored to have my gay friends be able to be married. In this world where people are killed every day we need to honor and celebrate love, any love and ALL love!
I hope the nation cried out loud and strong. This is beyond laws, it is inhuman.
They tried to! The *%$@ judge threw it out.
What this shows is that in Florida, is there is no appropriate system of redress for what happened. I am gay, left-leaning, and my heart breaks for this incredibly terrible situation.
I also think the rage against the judge is misplaced, given a dispassionate look at the facts of the case. Given the circumstances presented, it would be difficult to see how he could have made a different decision.
This must be an incredibly difficult statement to absorb when focusing on the emotional impact of how poorly the hospital treated the family, but a read of the facts against the state statute and common law is fairly clear, he would have had to be incredibly unconventional, stretching the law to appeal to the humanity of the situation against stated code and common law (equitable judgements are hardly ever used if the facts are as clear as this) to arrive at a holding against the hospital, and I believe an appeal won't get the family any closer to a sense of vindication. That sucks. Florida sucks for having an environment that allows this kind of behavior to exist.
This will story will haunt the hospital, they could have done so much more to accommodate this family, and it is a PR nightmare that I believe will cause a lot of pain for the institution, and let's all pray, will force them to match their policies with their practices.
There is nothing more I can say about this that has not already been said. That is, nothing more than, “I'm terrified”. Humans, no matter what are entitled to their opinion, and I understand why people are frightened and disgusted by [us] homosexuals, I do not understand why people must let their fears and own uncomfortable feelings get the best of them, or use them as excuses to treat others so poorly. Thus, my terror. Being a homosexual male, and a family man, I hope to someday have a family, and for my partner and children I just pray that nothing like this has to occur. Perhaps someday the words of true love and compassion will seep into the hardened hearts of man kind, until then, I fear we, as a species, have to reach a state of sentience.
It wouldn't have mattered if they had been from Massachusetts and had been married. They would have just flatly told them that they are not in Massachusetts and would have refused her entry just the same. Only once gay marriages are recognized in every state, and from every state, will this kind of discrimination be a thing of the past.
This brought tears to my eyes, it sickens and saddens me beyond words that the State of Florida would have the gall to treat any person with such inhuman, malignant, disrespectful cruelty. They disregarded federal law in failing to recognize legal birth certificates, Durable Power of Attorney, and a legal Living Will. This is sick, it is wrong, and it is ILLEGAL, and yet the judge callously disregards the law, throwing his personal views in the face of legal and moral precedent. This is a crime, it is a sin, and it is completely and utterly unforgivable. I myself am Bisexual, and have numerous friends and loved ones who are Bisexual, Homosexual, or Transgendered, and to think that some of my friends and loved ones, or even possibly myself, would be treated in this manner makes me so angry I cannot even see straight. I pray with all my heart that justice is served in this case, and the criminal and amoral actions of this hospital are punished to the fullest extent of the law.
The fucked up part is that the women were practicing the religion of the people who did this to them in the first place.
Illness is illness, and as such has no regard to race, religion, or sexual persuasion. Is it not about time that we started to feel and think the same way in regards to treatment, compassion and the support that is required when a loved one becomes ill, whether terminal or otherwise. This article has made me realize a few things about humanity one of those is that we still see “alternative” life choices as an easy way to put up the potential barrier for forward movement, who in anybodies name god or otherwise has the power to stop family members being there for one another in a time of need such as this, sadly one of my other thoughts is how do I separate myself from the human race?. This is an absolutely disgusting way to perform. Ok so am I an American? No, am I religious? No, am I gay? Again a respectful no, however I am Human and have suffered loss, that alone should give me reason to add my 2 cents worth. My thoughts go out to those left behind, and if anybody involved (from the hospital or courtroom) are to read this remember on thing you cannot take it back, or make it any easier this terrible thing you have done is done. And a final good luck to all those on the march!
Be glad you live in MA and have the rights in your home state, but remember that this couple was traveling away from home. We need action on a federal level to truly protect our rights!
Matt, you are so full of it! My partner and I only got married because of legal reasons. It was cheaper for insurance, health care and mainly if one of us died, the other wouldn't have to deal with bull****. We already owned our home jointly, had a bank account with both of our names, and both of our names on our vehicles.
My mom and the man I consider my dad of 25 of my 32 years, finally got married last year. Why? Because he is retiring and the only way it was feasible was for them to get married BEFORE dad retired or mom would have been screwed…although she has been the “homemaker” for 23 of those 25 years.
The only weddings I see are big splashy who-are-you-trying-to-outdo ones. The marriages, those are the ones that they never needed a piece of paper stating that they loved this person. Those are the ones that last.
~Spouse for legal reasons; loved for ME
@ UZ… Read carefully, and do your research instead of spouting off personal bias.
Jackson Memorial Hospital is part of the University of Miami, and THEREFORE, must be non-sectarian. The only mention of religion was in that she asked the catholic priest attending to do last rites. Most hospitals have lists of ministers and such of various denominations and religions on call to be brought in when patients and family ask.
This whole story is sickening enough in truth, but to be adding false ideas to it lessens it. That a NON-SECTARIAN hospital, presumably staffed by people with a variety of beliefs lock stepped in this way, makes it so startling.
I am absolutely speechless and heartbroken for the The Langbehn-Pond Family. I hope you are well in mind, as you still walk a very uncomfortable path. Please know that you are not alone.
As the partner of an openly gay surgeon in Ohio, I cannot believe that vicious law would allow such heinous decisions to continously be made.
Unity and Equality should be now, and it is long overdue. May we please come together as one voice, and fight for justice. What a tragic loss this family had to and has to endure. I pray for your comfort and a society that not only your children and our fellow man can be heard, supported and recognized.
Did you even read Matt's post?
BTW, this isn't about you.
I live in the state of Florida, near Jacksonville. I'm sad to say that this is the standard of care, in my experience, that all hospitals in the state give. My husband and I were married in a civil service out in Colorado. Colorado allows the parties to marry themselves in front of a civil clerk without a religious witness. When I was hospitalized, one of the first things they did was to separate us. It was hours before I saw him and then only because he'd managed to sneak past them. The argument was that it wasn't a legitimate marriage and therefore he had no right to see me.
We had POA (in fact, he's only of the designated decision makers; a family friend and a girlfriend are the other). They refused to honor it. I was, at that time, completely unable to make decisions and they wouldn't honor any of his. I ended up with a biopsy I didn't need because of this.
Florida apparently has some very rigid standards as to what qualifies as marriage and what does not. We're married in the eyes of the law, but not apparently in the eyes of the state of Florida and it cost me dearly in terms of health.
What happened here just magnifies the tragedy of voting for something you don't understand. Voters were told that if they sanctioned the amendment defining marriage, more than just the GLBT community would be caught in the cross fire but they ignored it.
Now families like hers and mine get to pay the price.
I can't believe that a judge didn't see the complete and utter injustice in this.
It doesn't matter whether they had a civil union or not. Birth certificates and POA are legal documents and what is on them should have been proof enough.
This is what I found on the Jackson Memorial web site. How can these stories be so different? How scary is it that this can happen. I have always been afraid of what would happen if either me or my partner were sick… So far in my life I have had very good experiences. That being said, it only takes one person to really mess things up!
Jackson News
Court Dismisses Lawsuit Against Jackson Memorial
On September 29, the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida dismissed the lawsuit brought by Janice Langbehn against Jackson Memorial Hospital. This case involved a woman from Washington state who claimed she was kept from seeing her same-sex partner while her partner was being treated for a brain aneurysm at the Ryder Trauma Center in February 2007. We have always believed and known that the staff at Jackson treats everyone equally, and that their only concern is the well-being of the patients in their care.
At Jackson Health System, we believe in a culture of inclusion. For more than 90 years, the institution has taken great pride in serving everyone who enters its doors, regardless of race, creed, religious beliefs or sexual orientation. We also employ a very diverse workforce, one that mirrors the community we serve.
Jackson Memorial Hospital does not restrict visitation on account of a person’s sexual orientation. In fact, the hospital grants visitation to all individuals equally, regardless of their relationship to the patient – as long as doing so does not interfere with the care being given to the patient or other patients in the area. A friend or colleague is viewed no differently than a partner, spouse, or parent for purposes of visitation. Jackson will continue to work with the gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender community to ensure that everyone knows they are welcome at all of our facilities, where they will receive the highest quality of medical care.
Matt, maybe the problem lies with the personnel in the hospital that did not interpret the situation correctly. Certainly any human being, never mind gay or lesbian, they deserve to be with their closest family, friends or even acquaintances in their last minutes on earth and the same is true of the patients friends, for god sake, what a shame!
Where is the legal standing for the hospital not to let anyone in to see the patient. The friend brought her into the emergency room. She is still there waiting for any news.It is obvious the person cares for the patient. What or who gives the hospital staff the right to keep her from seeing the patient?
Sickening!
It is time for each and every person to make it a point to openly ostracize anyone who makes ignorant comments with an anti-gay or racist or sexist tone. That is the only way that we will change our country. All of us know someone who comes out of their mouth with some ignorant comments, and because they're friends or we work with them or they're bullies at school or for whatever reason, a lot of us just shake our heads and avoid confrontation. We need to confront them and call them out openly in public for spouting nonsense. Make it uncomfortable to be anti-gay, or racist, or sexist. And not only in the Northeast or in liberal areas, but in the churches of the South, and at the PTA meetings in the Midwest, or at the county fairs in Oklahoma and Texas, everywhere that someone makes a remark that's offensive or borderline discriminatory, people need to step up and confront them until it is more uncomfortable to be a bigot than it is to be a sex offender.
Perhaps it might be time to think of marriage in two parts (as they actually are) – the civil and the religious. As most other nations do, you register your union at city hall and then, if you so choose, you have a religious ceremony at the house of worship of your choice.
Strange how a country that prides itself on individual rights and separation of church and state has chosen (and defends) this commingling of the two in the most personal and lifelong action any couple can make.
Just my $0.02 worth
This is one of the saddest & most unforgivable offenses I have ever heard of before. It's not just a question of marriage, civil unions, same-sex marriages or heterosexual marriages. Its about civil rights, and the right to common decency.
I'm heterosexual and have been married for 16 years, and I have never understood this whole debate over marriage. Let everyone marry regardless of orientation, gender, race, etc. and let's all move on as a country.
Now, if you'll excuse me-I'm going to go get frikkin sick now. :(
~Seti
This is one of the saddest & most unforgivable offenses I have ever heard of before. It's not just a question of marriage, civil unions, same-sex marriages or heterosexual marriages. Its about civil rights, and the right to common decency.
I'm heterosexual and have been married for 16 years, and I have never understood this whole debate over marriage. Let everyone marry regardless of orientation, gender, race, etc. and let's all move on as a country.
Now, if you'll excuse me-I'm going to go get frikkin sick now. :(
~Seti
Heartbreaking…outrageous. I linked to this story on my Facebook and asked all my friends to pass it along to others.
I'd love to see thousands of DPOA copies from partners and friends flood the Jackson Memorial Hospital mailroom.
Though I feel sympathy for the family and the troubles they went through and agree that the staff went a bit over board in “following” the rules, there are a few things I am surprised most of you seem not to realize here. In most of the southern states they DO NOT recognize same sex marriages ,union, or the like of any form and anything another state decides to accept is their right but in those states anyone not related to people by blood or a recognized marriage has no rights to anything legal dealing with their chosen partner.This includes P.o.A. living wills custody of children or even benefits due to retirement,disability,or military. You have to think also that you are talking about Republican,bible thumping, anti-intelligent people running these states All it takes is for the Hospital to go to court stating they hold policies that do not allow Non-blood relatives or legal spouses to have access or be notified of each step and they have covered the liability. This may change in time and as great as I think it would be for it to change sooner rather than later I do not see society in the large ready for this large of a step this also includes same sex unions/marriages. If I as a heterosexual am allowed to be happy/sad/miserable with someone in the eyes of the legal system then gays and lesbians deserve that ability and right as well.
As a side note I am baffled the Priest was willing to provide the last rights, thats the one person I would have expected to deny her.
“I do not see society in the large ready for this large of a step…”
Then to hell with society in the large.
'Society in the large' wasn't ready to abolish slavery, or grant women the vote, or allow black people to sit up the front of the bus. These things had to be fought for, *against* the wishes of 'society in the large'.
No minority group has ever received equal treatment simply by sitting back and waiting for 'society in the large' to grant it. If it was up to 'society in the large', a black wife still wouldn't be allowed to visit her white husband in some states in the US. It's the 21st century now, as I keep having to remind people. Gay people shouldn't still be stuck up the back of the bus, eyes demurely downcast, waiting and hoping for 'society in the large' to invite them to sit up the front with the 'normal' people.
None of us are equal until we all are.
One final point; how can you come on here and defend a hospital's decision to deny a parent the RIGHT to see her own children, and for those children to see that parent?
I think the Hospital Chaplain and the Catholic Priest should be fired and condemed for not stand up to bigoty and hatred. How Crueland Evil can Religious Men be to stand by and do nothing while a woman dies. Did they laugh as she lay dying? Then prayed when it was to late? I have survived 25 years of AIDS, blindness and now undectectable for HIV. The religious men and women told me “I deserved to die” 25 years ago. I out-lived them all. GOD Bless and May St. Michael watch over you!!!! AMEN Aronic Priest Boxer
Wow, I can't believe this happened in this day and age. Does anyone know if this is a case the ACLU would be willing to take? Are the security tapes from that day in that area still available? Maybe a new case can be opened to get this family some justice and teach Jackson Memorial a lesson. Very sad and unbelievable all at the same time.
WOW this does not surprise me at all when it comes to Jackson…my 51yr old Mother walked in a healthy and active Woman and NEVER WALKED OUT!!! Due to an incompetent Cardiac Surgeon and Staff!!! Please keep in mind that…my Mother was a very active 51 year old woman, she rode Bike for 15 miles every day for the past 8 years, she would also go running every now and again when she wasn’t biking. She also went to the University of Tae Kwon Do for 3 years, she was a very healthy eater, never smoked cigarettes, and only socially drank. My Mom went in for a Cardiac Cauterization on June 8th 2009 at 8am within an hour after the process began the Surgeon Dr spoke with her Sister in Law and said that he would have to perform Emergency Open Heart Surgery on my Mother or she would die within 24 hours if he didn’t. During the Cauterization my Mother mentioned in her own words that she almost Died. She then mentioned it again to her Sister in Law when she was brought outside to the LSCU at the Jackson Memorial Hospital. Her Sister in Law then called Me(Daughter of the Patient) and told her that she needed to rush to the LSCU because they were going to perform this very critical surgery on her Mother. The OR Team waited long enough for Me and my Little Brother to get there in order for us to see her before heading up to surgery.My Mother's surgery commenced at 12:20pm and while We the Family were waiting in the Main Lobby area at around 1:30pm we notice the Head Anesthesiologist who introduced herself earlier before my Mother was taken into surgery as the Anesthesiologist who would be in charge during her surgery was seen walking into the Jackson Cafeteria for lunch We were told her “emergency” open heart surgery would take approximately 3 hours, guess what? 3 hours go by no info on my Mom, 4, 5, 6, 7 & finally 8 hours go by with no info on my Mother. Until I finally get pissed off and demanded to know where her Mother was and it is when I was told that my Mother was still in Surgery after 8 hours, Dr. So & So finally comes out to speak with Me and comments that my Mom was a very sick Woman that she had been sick for years that they had to replace the Valve 2 times and that because of this she is now in very critical condition and might not even survive the night when the family was finally allowed to see my Mother, I was the first one to go in and see her what she saw was just horrifying and unbelievable. My Mother went into this surgery looking like she has always looked young and full of life, but once she came out of this surgery she was a vegetable, swollen and deformed beyond recognition, it was as if they had switched persons. June 8th went by and until June 14th we were always told that she was “stable” yet they never seemed to take her off of the Heavy Sedatives and Medications they had her on. They proceeded to put her on a dialysis machine, but they continued to tell us that she was “stable”, that is all the Dr. would tell the Immediate Family. I would try to communicate with the nursing staff in certain things she saw out of place or just did not seem right to her, but the nurses with the exception of 2 of the night nurses were very uncooperative and cold. when I arrive that day to the SICU I notices that her right foot was turning Black, when she asks the nurse in charge that day, the nurse says that it is because that is where the Balloon Pump was removed from her right leg. As the day progresses and before leaving for the night Ingrid starts to notice that her Mother is starting to look Yellowish, again she asks the nurse and she responded with “that is because of all the medications we are giving her”. This was the response for everything Ingrid would notice and ask about. Sunday the 14th came around and I get to the hospital and when I walk to my Mother’s Bed I notices that my Mother’s left hand was also starting to get black, also from a few days back I had noticed that my Mother’s left hand was very cold but her forearm was warm. Again when asking the nurse, her response was that it was due to the Medications they had given her due to some blood clots she had from all the Transfusions she had received throughout the week. I then ask the nurse if she was aware that my Mother was at risk of acquiring Gangrene, and the nurse merely said that it was a risk they would have to take in order to have her alive. So I say, you mean to tell me you are going to cut her Hand and Leg off? Nurse replied with a “yes”. At that moment the Dialysis machine starts to beep when Ingrid turns around she notices that on the Dialysis Machine it reads “Air in the Blood” and tells the nurse about it, the nurse comes over to my Mother and tries to fix the catheter in her neck and restart the machine but is unsuccessful…she repeats this step for about 2 minutes, when another nurse tells her to just turn off the machine and restart it. The nurse does as she is told, within seconds of her doing this I notice my Mother’s heartbeat starts to drop dramatically and I let the nurse know, at this point I was told that the patient is unstable and I need to leave until the patient is stabilized. 20 minutes go by when I am called and meet with the Dr. and I was told that my Mother is not going to survive. I rush back into the SICU and see when my Mother was going into Cardiac Arrest and the Staff is performing CPR on her but with no luck 10 minutes later the Dr. announces that my Mother had passed away at 6:11pm. Jackson asked us if we wished to have an autopsy performed, to which we agreed too…but the next day I called the Morgue at Jackson and said that I did not want Jackson to perform the Autopsy. The Family then began to search for a Private Autopsy in which we were successful and are now in a legal pursuit, that is why the names have been keep out of this.
Well this is my story and this is not the first horror story I have heard coming from Jackson, this has got to finally stop…just because people don't have the money to pay for private insurance it should not be a reason for them to be treated like animals or worse than animals. I wish this Family all the Peace in the World and that they can move on and live the life their loved one would have wanted them too. My prayers are with you and I know for a fact that Lisa is watching her Children and You!!!
not much different in Texas….never will be. sad.
My heart goes out to Lisa's partner and their children for having had to endure this…. My REBUKE goes out to the Judge in that case, and i HOPE, someone will be so kind as to “remind” him that judges will be judged by their “judgments”. The ENTIRE hospital staff are also REBUKED by me, for letting something this awful happen. Having read this story and the other replies, i feel compelled to add here that from my experiences pets have even been allowed in, to say their good-byes to the dying. In other words, Lisa, her other half, and their children were treated by the hospital staff “as” worst than a dog.
Matt, many have been lead astray by false teachings and seem to forget jesus' NUMBER ONE command. That being to “love”. Other scripture add that “love” is never unkind or disrespectful.
My heart also goes out to those that made this sad thing happen, and i will pray for them also. My prayer “being” that their hearts can change…. To that “judge”, i add that i know for a fact that judges will be judged by their judgments, and i would not want to be in that judge's shoes when he gets his.
Forgive me for not being able to explain how so much “false teachings” have been allowed to exist and RULE people's lives.. Not to mention all the pain and unnecessary suffering these false teachings have lead to.
ONE THING i will say about those that have such hate in their hearts, is that from my experience, they are hard to reason with, and have to IGNORE some of the scriptures they “claim” they cling to, to justify their hate. Number One “being” 1Timothy 4:1-5 that warns us to not let anyone tell us who we may or may not marry. NUMBER TWO, is they also have to ignore the scripture that talks of the final day about who will be taken and who will be left behind. (Luke 17:34)..(btw.. gay not being a deciding factor)
As sad is it might be, i have to laugh at those “so called christians” that spew out their hate and THEN have to use all KINDS OF FLAWED “logic” to continue to justify their hate.
How many FAIL to “understand” that the bible was written for all mankind of all TIMES? God had a time when he wanted the world populated. As gays do not populate they had at “one time” a cross to bear of not being allowed to live the life they wanted to live…(BTW.. Look around… THE World is full now)
What about the “other shoe” logic… What if straights were living in a gay world where they had to endure the prejudice and suffering that i have had to see gays suffer in my “life time”?
Now i will find the “Submit” (Post as Guest), button to ADD my two cents worth and pray that minds and hearts can be opened from the post i have made here… May god help us all, as the above story clearly SHOWS just how much help “We, THE People” need.
you could not be more wrong here sir, 1st I understand hate. The social worker is a bigot with institutional powers backed up by an uncaring chaplain and a priest who also did nothing for a dying woman, her children and her spouse. Marriage equality is all that is need be understood. A spouse is a spouse. A family is a family. Parents deserve the right to have children say good bye in death. This hospital should pay millions in actual and punitive damages. The social worker needs to be discharged so he can go to work for Jerry Falwell elsewhere. The Federal Judges must be impeached. The bridge metaphor works only if it is strong enough for LGBTQ people to walk across without bigots spitting in our faces on that bridge.
The situation was perfectly defined. Birth certificates were in hand and living will was faxed immediately. The social worker was a bigot gate keeper. Families are all about next of kin. This so called hospital was all about letting this bigot keep his job. This Federal Judge is all about Rethuglican hate. Fire the bigot. Impeach the evil judge. Justice is about evidence and compassion, not any unequal law. The Constitution has been about equality since the 14th Amendment passed. Make this family whole by an appeal to redress grief. Even if this couple had a Massachusetts Marriage License in hand, I doubt if the bigot social worker would have acted differently.
I am an abortion clinic escort. Every Saturday bigots instantly judge all young females as killing “their baby” all grey haired people are “killing their grand child” and all black people are there to be subjected to “black genocide” by these same kind of screaming bigots who run that so called hospital in Miami. I see people driving cars and walking and make no judgment on anyone. They have a right to be free of hate. This family deserves sympathy, not bigotry. I was not stopped from loving my parents on their death beds. If I were in drag, I should expect Miami to keep my family from my bedside? With a million dollar judgment, a fired social worker and an impeached judge, Miami will get it and teach the entire staff to heal families, not promote hate.
78 per cent of SC voters made hate the Constitutional policy in 2006. “no benefit of marriage” shall be given to anyone except a “man and a woman” with a marriage license in this bigoted state. Only 6 states have granted marriage equality. Let's fight FL & the other 43.
The perpetrators were enjoined by the lawsuit and the Federal Judge denied justice and promoted more bigotry. Accordingly the issue must be appealed and the judge impeached.
Well said Steve. Boy Bush likely appointed this Bush Crime Family Rethuglican to the federal bench. I'm still grief struck by several unjust human stories on this planet right now. People of caring faiths and all facts must come together to stop this deep religious hate evidenced in Miami and anywhere across the globe.
It is not just the social worker, the chaplain and the priest also did little or nothing as advocates for this family. All of them knew the code to the door lock. Everyone of them, the doctors could have simply said: I'll make sure you can stay with her and see that her children can come in too.
Michelle, you just do not get it how deep bigotry is fully worshiped here in the South. Few churches or clergy embrace equality. Most still want to “win” the civil war. Since it is so obvious that hate is illegal towards Blacks, LBGTQ people are the new “niggers” that suffer “open season” just as Atheists are denied equal treatment wantonly by theocrats. As long as government is allowed to establish the religions of hate, peace religions and those of us with no religions are second class citizens. Alleged deities are given free reign by their believers when it suits the Rethuglican and Dixicrat politicians. Them “yankee lesbians” were not even allowed to be Catholics in Miami. We need to take to the streets and carry our signs until we can hold hands in peace.
There is a NCAA boycott of many sports events because the rebel flag still flies here in SC. You can bet money and win that social worker has a rebel flag in his FL house. See dozens of them on licence plates in the hospital parking lot. When the LGBTQ community boycotts Disney and the entire state of Florida and more millions of dollars go to tourism in the 6 marriage equality states & those considering marriage equality, our financial muscle will win our civil rights.
He is not the only bigot judge. There is one in SC who lets terrorists run loose at the abortion clinic and us escorts are gagged into silence so their illegal screams of “murderer” are heard. Religious bigotry is popular from the WDC beltway all the way down I-95 to Miami
yes, I would have had the left hand twisted in pain in a circle behind the shoulder blade of the social worker until he wrote down with his right hand the door lock numbers and admitted his bigotry, apologized and promised he would ensure full family respect/access to the dying mother/lover. Only pain can teach a bigot away from his evil ways. Obviously he celebrates his hate with his comrade fascist judge on his side.
you seem to be regurgitating the false “findings” of the court, not the situation as suffered by this family…a sibling is not next of kin and the sibling does not execute the living will, this so called hospital is guilty and there is no legal defense for it's criminal staff. One can not pretend all was well at any point in this crisis once the ambulance arrived
it does not matter what WA “legal” means in FL, the so called hospital had a family in attendance and if a concerned father was wanting to see his spouse with their children, no documents would have been demanded or referred to… this is blatant bigotry against a lesbian. Period. Reinstate this lawsuit ASAP and get the money damages to motivate this bigoted institution to rid themselves of so called social workers and pathetic non-advocating clergy
this kind of thing happens when the Bush Crime Family rules and is not jailed, all of them
there is no “7 years” dicta in the 13 common law marriage states. When people make a “public declaration” “holding out” to others that they are married, once then their cohabitation is established, one day is sufficient and no time limits exist. It is the intent of the parties only that matters. 37 states grant licenses for sex. Most of those license laws were passed to stop Mormons from polygamy, not stop gays or lesbians from loving one another equally under laws.
yes Catholics have blood on their hands and no self respecting couple should expect most priests to be anything but uncaring operatives of the evil Vatican Corporations that cause HIV infections and deny condoms to over a billion people
UZ is correct. The University of Miami status has nothing to do with the fact that loyalty to the Vatican and Catholicism kills. HIV is spread because the Vatican has veto powers over the World Health Organization and others who could be distributing condoms, preventing std's and unwanted pregnancies. Pedophile priests remain at large instead of defrocked and jailed for their rapes & molestations DUE TO VATICAN COVERUPS OF EVIDENCE. The Vatican continues to promote celibacy and “sin” of homosexuality. Though I applaud a few individual priests and nuns for many peace and justice efforts and Catholic Workers generally, UZ is correct that this couple is betrayed by priestcraft and should not have been loyal to an unknown diocese.
You know you don't have to reply to every comment on the thread, don't you?
yes I hope there are a million marchers today in WDC & in countless thousands of cities for gender justice….I'm too old and tired to be with my sisters and brothers in love, but I am not silent
“…but I am not silent.”
Yes, we've noticed.
The renegade State of Florida deposed President Tilden and President Gore. The votes are not counted in FL. Accordingly, Hayes was “selected” by an illegal House Committee, not a roll call of states as the Constitution provides. The Federal Courts illegally let the Bush Crime Family install boy Bush into the White House. It took federal troops to protect schools students in the south from bigotry. If we had a few of us sailors in dress whites to guard emergency rooms and escort families through locked doors in the University of Miami renegade hospitals, this family would not have suffered
lies, lies and more lies…. The social worker still has his bigoted job. Until the perpetrator is fired, Ryder Trauma Center remains a homophobic bastion.
there is only one fact of marriage, and that is love. There are many objects of marriage, those include family, inheritance, children, domiciles and custom. This family of two women and 3 children were violated by a renegade institution run by a renegade State of Florida. The perpetrators remain at large. None have been brought to justice. If I were a social worker there and I had injected my personal views on Catholicism onto this family, all who helped get me immediately relieved of my duties would have been hailed as anti-Atheist heroic personnel. Instead pro-religious hate social worker still has his job of denying lesbian rights.
you are correct that Jackson, UM & Ryder has blood on it's hands and is covering up, not solving the problem
Now that I've read all the posts and replied to many and like most, I must say that LAMDA lawyers must appeal this case by Oct 16th apparently, so I'm guessing the jerk judge handed down the decision September 17th? There can be no excuse for this decision. He would not have taken the word of a white perpetrator if the victims were African American. Lesbians must have full civil rights protection under law. Women must not be defined as breeders or sex objects but as free equal persons with all rights to marry, inherit, next of kin visitation and parental rights, whether vaginal or adoptive. All religious assumptions about people are false. The Iowa marital equality decision was based on the categorical reasoning that anti-gay religions may not be preferred over gay friendly religions who do have marriage ceremonies for same sex couples. Iowa must be secular. Secularity is neutrality in action. Neither favoring gay religions nor homophobic religions. Marriage equality is just that, all persons free to choose who they marry. A marriage license is merely a public declaration and holding out to all that love is the legitimate object at hand. Iowa is a common law state. One does not need a marriage license to be married. The license is a legal convenience to marital partners so that no “proof” need be established in common law. Common law was a territorial tradition to save couples a long trip to county or state capitals for a license merely for a wedding ceremony to be official.
Yes the surgeon is also from UM Hospital. Oh but 1 way or another they will pay for all the damage they have caused and not just my family, but every other family out there!!!
Thank you for ur response ANV.
I just feel for the kids – what kind of child has an “other mommy” — ??
Good luck to their sanity. It's not all about “love”, that only gets you so far. They will be chastised as they grow up, and it's both “mommies' faults for that. A child needs a father (male) and a mother (female). PERIOD!
Name (if indeed that is your real name!) -
Until recently, these children had two parents who loved them and provided a stable, caring home for them to grow up in. That's more than a lot of other kids get. If other kids pick on them for having two mommies, it's because they've been taught to do so by bigots like you.
Many children are growing up in homes with two parents of the same sex, and they're doing just fine. They'd be doing even better if anti-family bigots like you stopped discriminating against them, trying to tear their families apart, and just left them alone to get on with it.
Families come in all shapes and sizes, and they don't need your approval. Pull your head out of your butt and get over it.
Why must the state be “bigoted?” For a few hundred years people loved to live in the 'states'. How is it that when a person chooses to love someone of the same sex (something that has always been viewed as wrong! Never mind how it is viewed – It is wrong) or when people don't get their own ways that the problem lies in the state? How foolish. disgraceful for the children to be separated from their mother (whichever one may have been the mother) but the Lord's principles are never changing. Same sex friendships have never been looked down upon – but when you take your friends into the marriage bed – the Lord says this is wrong. The only reason to “fight” the other states would be simply to get your way – that is the wrong way. SIN!
Come on people, the judge simply upheld the law written under his jurisdiction. First it's the social worker, then its the chaplain, then its the hospital staff, then its the judge, then its the state, now its the Americas? Get real! We can't have rights just because we think we deserve them. The Bible doesn't teach, “do unto others as you would have them do to you” it teaches “do unto others REGARDLESS of how they do unto you.” Now it will be ME who is at fault for this tragedy. So sorry for the children and the partner left behind. There is however a reason for making sure people don't make the rules – the facility in question is simply protecting the patients' rights.
Are you serious? You wanted the social worker, chaplain and priest to break from everything they believe in? The posts here would be different then, we would all be saying, “Where is the integrity of the staff of all the hospitals around the world?” If you can't have it your way, just blame everyone else. The 'partner' could have run to the door and fought her way inside if the issue here is about getting back to the family. She could have fought those in the hospital. She could have kicked the door until someone came and let her in. Why blame the staff for standing for the policies set forth by the institution they work for?
You may be able to use your 'finances' to change policies and laws, but you will never change the will of God. 1 Corinthians 6 states that homosexuals are wrong, as murderers, adulterers, prostitutes and so on. Change it for now while you can and live in the freedom you desire, but the Lord's judgement comes without mercy. Standing before Him, what will you say, “It's just unfair. We wanted to be gay and do whatever we wanted. You (God) can't stop us from getting into heaven. We'll file a lawsuit?” Whatever. Repent and stop turning Marriage into whatever you wish it to be. It no where says that God made them same sex so they could have a happy family. Male and Female! Enough said.
I pray in Jesus Name that the Devil speaking to you be silenced. That you will endure tragedy upon tragedy until your evil and wicked way of thinking and speaking is silenced.
When this comes to pass, don't blame the Christians – Cry Out to God for salvation and forgiveness for saying the foolish things you say. May the demons in your life tear you apart until You repent and then follow the Lord Jesus Christ
Ignorant!!!!!!!
Your name says it all. Atheist! You don't believe in anything. So corruption is at its best in your life. So sad you have no idea where to turn in times of need. Only the Lord can bring you peace and joy. “Twist the arm back”? Yep, that's atheism at its best. Can't get your way because the Lord Jesus Christ said you can't, so we'll just rip people's arms off. There you go.
“the facility in question is simply protecting the patients' rights.”
Are you serious, cglennh? Whose rights were being protected by keeping this family apart as one of the parents lay dying? Who benefited from this decision? What good was being served here?
“How is it that when a person chooses to love someone of the same sex…”
When are bigots like you going to get it through your heads that it's NOT A CHOICE?!?!
“Standing before Him, what will you say, “It's just unfair. We wanted to be gay and do whatever we wanted.”
Nobody WANTS to be gay. Who would choose to be gay and have to put up with a lifetime of bigoted, judgemental bullshit (sorry Matt) from ignorant people like you? Kindly take your bigoted, anti-family rhetoric and stick it where the sun don't shine.
I might share your faith but you are a clear demonstration of ppl taking those parts which fit their own agendas from religion without looking at the underlying sentiments.
LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR never mind what they look like who they F**K or how their family works as long as it doesn't break any of the other 10 commandments then withstand them.
the basics for thoses who have forgotten them are:
1) no other god except jesus christ god and the holy spirit trinity,
2)thou shall not steal,
3)thou shall not kill,
4)thou shall not covert thy neighbours wife,
5) thou shalt not take the lords name in vain,
6) thou shall not commit murder,
7) thou shall not commit adultery,
8) honour thy mother and thy father,
9)thou shalt not bear false witness ,
10) remember sabath and keep it holy
TO KNOWINGLY KEEP PERSONS APART BECAUSE OF THEIR CHOICES WHEN NONE OF THESE CHOICES CONTRAVENE THE BASICS OF CHRISTIANITY IS TO PROVE THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE USING THEIR RELIGION AS AN EXCUSE TO HIDE THEIR BIGOTRY NOT TO BETTER LIFE ON THIS EARTH. THIS CRUELTY ALONE TO FELLOW HUMANS WILL KEEP THEM ALL OUT OF THE HEAVEN THEY THINK THEY SO RIGHTLY DESERVE.
By not allowing Lisa her written and appropriately documented requests these people have born false witness to this household, they have covetted that which they themselves did not understand and therefore were scared of and out of that fear and loathing their actions came.
I wish this family only the will to forgive in the true Christian sense that these bigots cannot fathom.
This is terrible, but not unheard of. I've read of another lesbian couple, who had to battle and fight when the one spouse was giving birth, the other was denied entrance. She had to battle the hospitals with lawyers over the entire situation.
Things like this happen all over the states, not just Florida (though Florida is known for it's hate on Gays, which aren't allowed to adopt either).
I hope and I hope that this will change. But for now, it's just the one thing that makes me glad I live in Canada, where we are all equal, a law passed by our PM.
right because if she had fought and kicked at the door, she wouldn't have been escorted of by security or arrested. and yes the social worker should have broken what they believe in. they had the legal documents saying they were able to make medical decisions for each other. if the social worker “believed” this was not right is irelevenat their belief is not an issue. It is their job to be a social worker . not to judge
you can hide behind being christian. judge not yet ye be judged? sound familiar..
no one is asking for special treatment, no one is asking for special rules. people are just asking to be treat the same as others. This is no different then racial equality or womans rights.
I hope god is more forgiving to you, then you have been
because that has always happened all the time in the past. these children where adopted so for one their “mother” and :”father” already chose the were not able to raise them well enough themselves. How many single family households are their with fully functional children. now how many with a mom and dad that are beaten, unloved, neglected, raped, killed? if a child is loved and cared for wha difference does i make
you've been brainwashed pretty dang good, boy.
atheism isn't nihilism, you dimwit. at least he or she has morality and compassion – something the theocratic desperately lack in spite of their precious godly “goodwill.” it's repulsive how some of you could even pretend to have sympathy, whereas you're more than willing to turn your back on those who don't share the same beliefs.
the promotion of bigotry is flat-out wrong. you people are so behind the times it's ridiculous. i mean, you're still following an outdated collection of short stories as though it's a way of life. come on. use your brain for once, you god-fearing hatemonger.
i am sick to my stomach
The ignorance of religious bigotry is shocking. Old Testament writing is next to impossible to translate in any reliable way, there are no vowels in Hebrew and the oldest writings have no “dots” where the vowels should appear in “tradition.” Similarly, Aramaic, the alleged language of “the lard” this writer cites as “his principles” have changed over and over again. Polygamy, incest, rape, the selling of women as property, whether daughters or slaves or concubines or wives and the insanity of celibacy has changed and changed and changed again. In short, Christianity is stupid, a moving target and ranges from pacific kind Quakerism & good works of Catholic Workers to the American Taliban that kills doctors, arms children in WACO, brainwashes believers away from health care for prayer death & Mormonistic rape of children, Catholic priest rape of children and massive coveroups of such crimes against humanity. It is kind to call such believers delusionals. No one should be loyal to homophobic religions and hopeless tiny steps of progress to reform this insane anti-science beast. Justice and marriage equality will continue to be slow coming in the next 44 states. Fight now to expose insane believers who rationalize at best hatred directed at human love.
Florida remains a renegade state. One FL city police officer married to a woman for many years, both women's name on the title deed of their home, was killed in the line of duty. This Nazi City Council & local courts denied the survivors pension to the woman & their children and the home was stolen by the cousin or so called “next of kin” in court proceedings. So much for any mirage of justice in the same renegade state that stole the White House from President Gore. The Bush Crime Family relies upon religious violence and bigoted religious hate voters for their hold on power.
children need communities free of bigots like you who advocate insane controls over families
Life is about choices. What is denied as a choice is a choice. God didn't make the mistake, mankind did. Sin is sin and you get the choice to allow God to forgive you. Alcoholics don't have to drink, they choose to. Violence is a choice and yet people are out of control. The message is simple – those who find themselves in sin and like it choose to make their way 'alright' by denying God's plan. I got it through my head that God said it is a sin 1 Cor. 6 and because of that you must give it over to Christ and allow His forgiveness to be more important to you then what anyone else can forgive or accept you for. He is the Way Truth and Life, No man comes to the Father but by me. Your continued disrespect for God will be the end of you. Get that through you head.
The Lord have mercy on you, you have a tremendous amount of knowledge but that is where you fall short. If the Lord gets a hold of you then you will be an amazing apologist for the Kingdom of God. However, you continue to do the Lord will by being the one leading people astray. Yes the 'dots' as you call them – don't forget the 'yod's' and the 'shewa's' and the other many differing styles of added linguistic helps. The language is understood from the people who speak the language. The closest and oldest manuscripts have been found and bring us to the conclusion (by those who know the language) that the translations we hold are the closest they could possibly be. The error is not God's error it is ours. Matt. 7:21 tells us that 'not everyone, who says Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven'. That doesn't have to be you. Repent of your “high” ways and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ while you may still be found.
Let everyone else break the law while serving the interests of others, just because we get used to having things OUR way. This may be alright in your home, but in the kingdom of heaven, the Lord will not be merciful, he won't care about your desires and wants, He only cares about His will for us and that is to trust Him as Savior and nothing else makes any difference. If Christ lives in you then you will act and behave as Christ would. Life is only as fair as the Lord allows it to be. We don't have a say according to His plan, we either fall under His Lordship or we walk according to our own.
If it's not a choice then it is a disease. Treatable! Would anyone wish to be a child pornographer, a murderer, male prostitute – is there a choice with these? How is homosexuality (which goes against the will of God – just as the rest of the others) any different. Because you like it? I have a family and I have a family according to the word of God not man. No one gave me my family, I accepted it from the Lord as a blessing. There are things I wish and desire to do better as a father and husband, but I don't have to struggle with the law of God that stands against – as you say “gay” tendencies and practices because I read the Word of the Lord and trust His Word. “The man who sleeps with his brother, condemns himself”.
Christianity is not a backdrop to do whatever we want. We have to live according to the Promise of God. If you want to come to heaven when you die, then trust my son Jesus. That's what God tells us. And if Jesus lives in us then we do and think as He does. The rules of mankind tell us to treat others the same, but the Word of the Lord teaches, “do unto others regardless of how they do unto you”. God is not merciful in His judgement. You do wrong and you get disciplined, you continue to do wrong knowing it is wrong and you get eternally punished. Anyone living for Christ wouldn't do what Christ disapproves of and get away with it. God will always be there watching and correcting. This may be YOUR wake up. Listen to it – God is not pleased. And we wonder, with people refusing to respect the Lord, why our nation is in the state it is in. We must again trust in Christ as Savior and let Him have His way with us.
With your language or reference to slang – we don't share the same faith. Christ doesn't speak like that. Now – Our faith is based on a promise to Abraham 430 years before the 10 commandments were given to us. The 10 commandments were given to us to draw us back to respecting the Lord Jesus Christ. Heaven help us for not knowing your Word – Lood at Galatians 3 and look at how the Law is designed to turn us back to Christ and trust him according to the promise of God to Abraham. The Law – if that is what you follow and live your life after – will only bring death. People who have faith in Christ believe the promise of God and aren't affected by the law because they aren't breaking it. Christ can't break the Law and if He lives in us we shouldn't break it either.
Your own words condemn you. No one has morality or compassion unless they learned it from the Lord. The Lord is not pleased to hear that those who follow Him and stand on His Word are usually the ones down trodden when it comes to teaching others how to live their lives under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. However, if we don't fight the good fight, the Lord isn't pleased. Your “short story” belief will only condemn you as well. God have mercy on you! The Lord will reveal Himself to you before the sun sets next Sunday. You will know that He is God, Mark my words as truth to you.
“If it's not a choice then it is a disease. Treatable! Would anyone wish to be a child pornographer, a murderer, male prostitute – is there a choice with these? How is homosexuality (which goes against the will of God – just as the rest of the others) any different. Because you like it?”
How dare you compare being homosexual – something which harms NO PERSON – to being any of the things you compared it to? A disease? Treatable? Science (yes, I realise that's probably a dirty word to you) says you are WRONG. I'm beginning to find your ignorance, along with your lack of basic human decency, offensive.
If you're finding a conflict between your religious beliefs, cglennh, and treating your fellow human beings with decency, respect, and as equals, perhaps it's time for you to re-think your religious beliefs. They seem to be standing in the way of you being a decent human being.
Oh, and for the record, I'm not gay. I'm simply sick and tired of seeing my fellow human beings treated as less than they are by bigots such as yourself. And to hide your bigotry behind the Bible, especially on a forum such as this one, is no less than blasphemy.
Now go and splash some cold water on your face and wake up to yourself, sir.
Please appeal this decision.
Wow. Do you know Osama Bin Laden? He's a religious fanatic too. Actually, hope that the Lord has mercy on YOUR intolerant, ignorant, unenlightened SOUL. I think the bigger sin is thinking you have any power to pass judgement on any other human being. Isn't that power just GODS? You “over think” your chosen religion to fit YOUR ideas like most fanatics. You really presume to know how God sees ALL his children in this world? Take the blinders off and take a look at the diversity in the world and realize the main message in all religions boils down to “LOVE”. Shame on you. Shame on them. No one should have to die without their loved ones near them. Oh yea, what about John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” So does this just mean straight people that believe? We are created in Gods image, so are you saying God made a mistake? Something wrong with Adams rib?
We all are direct descendants correct? We are. We don't choose to be. Some things like narrow mindedness are choices as you well know. Take a look at the whole world sometime before it's too late for you.
When you say “let him have his way with us…” just what do you mean? Are you one of those religious people who use sex to spread the word [and other things]. I'll bet you like those televangelists, that do drugs, have sex with prostitutes and who knows who else, young children? All with the blessing of their lord! Maybe even the people that live in the communes away from the rest of society… they have “their way” with their inmates according to their christian belief too. You are a very strange person. Did God not give us “free will?” Do you know what that is? Try thinking for yourself for a change and not out of a book. You should get therapy for your condition, you really are a sheep you know, probably very low self esteem. I feel sorry for you. I don't know what happened to you as a child that you think LOVE is a dirty word. You shouldn't curse people either…
remember thou shalt not hate.
It is an absolute tragedy that a family has been treated in this manner. What I find even more disturbing is the religious superiority and intolerance of some of the comments. The hypocrisy and ignorance spewed forth from some people's mouths is unbelievable. What gives any one of us the audacity to believe that we have the one and only path to salvation?!? The moral superiority that cglennh thinks he has because of his belief in one particular religion and then using those beliefs to justify his his assertion that this family somehow deserved to be treated as they were because they don't fit his definition of a “family” is truly frightening. Does cglennh not understand that religious intolerance has been the primary cause of war and genocide throughout history? Does he also believe that the murder of millions based solely on religion is also justified? Without dignity, respect, and compassion for others we are nothing as human beings.
Fuck you and your righteous god, he didn't write the bible, men did to keep bitches like you from leaving the house and having free will and being able to speak their mind. The Bible also says that women belong to men, and I think your man should stone your ass for speaking when not spoken to.
BUT not everyone is christian, and being a country with a serperation of church and state, this should not have happened,
behave as christ would?? what about how he bathed the feet of slaves, those who were considered beneth all others and not equaly human, or how he befriended mary magdeline a prostitute, everything I have ever heard about jesus shows him as someone with compasion and love for others,
nothing anyone says will change the way you think, and that is ok, you shouldnt have to change what you think or believe in, but neither should others.
All I can say is that I am proud to be canadian and live in a country where compassion to fellow men is more easily available.
Here is ignorance on display. The Ten Commandments had nothing to do with drawing people back to Christ, they were given many, many years before Jesus was born. That's why they are in the OLD Testament.
I wonder how it would be if one of your children or grandchildren were to tell you that they were gay. Maybe then you would understand that it is not a choice, not something people do because they “like” it (although why shouldn't people like their lives and their love? There is no shame in liking oneself). But given your attitude, I bet if one of your children were gay, they would hide it from you and cut you out of their life. That is the kind of heartache caused by intolerance and hatred. How can you casually equate being gay with murder and prostitution? Being gay does not hurt anyone, all the hurt is caused by those who fear and judge.
This kind of story is what keeps me separated from God. I consider myself Christian, but do not attend church because I cannot stand to breathe the same air with people who would vote to disallow same sex unions.
Continue to vote against same sex unions with the notion that your disgusting behavior as Blind Christians keeps people like me an arms length from God. It is YOUR fault. I love God and Jesus for everything that he purports to be…I want to be like him, not you…you who would separate the love of a family and carve tragedy upon the earth. -signed, the daughter of a Baptist Minister in Tampa Florida
This is for “NAME” following this post:
The bible doesn't say that women belong to men. The bible says that women should respect/submit to their husbands. Men are commanded to 'love' their wives . . . COMMANDED . . . women are not. Commanded to love their wives as CHRIST loved the church and gave Himself up for HER. Not stone her. When Jesus had the opportunity to cast a stone at a woman, He showed compassion for her and forgave her . . . she followed Him to His death. He LOVED her. Man COMMANDED to LOVE his WIFE. Not his husband. I can't understand why you would use such language, speak against the righteousness of God, and the Bible. If it accomodates your disbelief to believe God didn't write the Bible that's okay, truly it is, but your disbelief will separate you from the presence of God in your life. If it better suits you to know your stern male philosophy should make a difference to me, understand that I am a man and do not treat women as you have suggested I should. I'M COMMANDED TO LOVE HER AS CHRIST LOVED THE CHURCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ridiculous . . . I believe in the compassion of God. The church didn't make the rules for what happened to this family the state did. The Bible doesn't teach that homosexuals don't have hospital visiting benefits the state says, “those who are not family will not be allowed entrance into the patients room” Power of attorney and living wills do not allow visitation rights, they allow someone else to make the FINAL decisions regarding life and death, not being in the room at the moment of death. Living wills and power of attorneys do not make us family. The state made the policy and it has nothing to do with homosexuality . . . but facility policy. No one was standing at the door with the bible quoting scripture to validate the reasons for this woman not being allowed in the room. But the staff of the hospital stood for their policy and procedures. It is still sad, it is still horrible that someone died alone, but it's not God's fault. Canada isn't a country where people show compassion. Canada is quickly turning into a muslim nation and when that religion is forced upon you . . . and it will be FORCED . . . you will either choose to abide by their 'policy' or die. Chrsittianity doesn't seek to kill anyone, Jesus came to seek and to save what was lost and when He returns He will not be seeking anyone, He will be calling His people home. Check your religious stats and do your own figuring on how fast you will see that group take over your beloved home. They either convert you or kill you. FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This comment is for the 'spiritual seeker'. Are you serious?
The Bible clearly teaches that the promise (Trust Jesus and You get to Go to Heaven) of God was given to Abraham 430 years before the 10 commandments were given to Moses. The Promise given was that Jesus would save Abraham and all who confess Him to be Lord. The Law was given in order to draw people to Christ. People lost respect for God and His promise and therefore because of 'trangressions the law was given. The law was never meant to bring life and if life could have been given through the law then there would be no use for the promise, but God gave it to Abraham, through Christ, by promise.” 430 years before the big 10. That nugget of truth is found in the NEW TESTAMENT – Galatians 3 – Now that you know – check it for yourself; Just start in verse 1 and read slowly – you'll then see the opposite of ignorance – wisdom. If you choose NOT to check it for yourself then ignorance doesn't even play a part. You spoke before you understood the Scriptures . . . how many other things have you spoken about and actually did more harm to people than good. Remember even those who believe they are being used for good can actually be used to deceive and not even know it. Careful how you handle the Word of Truth. I know this will upset you, but ask for the Lord to keep you humble and you will be. Keep Seeking.
Are you serious?
The Bible clearly teaches that the promise (Trust Jesus and You get to Go to Heaven) of God was given to Abraham 430 years before the 10 commandments were given to Moses. The Promise given was that Jesus would save Abraham and all who confess Him to be Lord. The Law was given in order to draw people to Christ. People lost respect for God and His promise and therefore because of 'trangressions the law was given. The law was never meant to bring life and if life could have been given through the law then there would be no use for the promise, but God gave it to Abraham, through Christ, by promise.” 430 years before the big 10. That nugget of truth is found in the NEW TESTAMENT – Galatians 3 – Now that you know – check it for yourself; Just start in verse 1 and read slowly – you'll then see the opposite of ignorance – wisdom. If you choose NOT to check it for yourself then ignorance doesn't even play a part. You spoke before you understood the Scriptures . . . how many other things have you spoken about and actually did more harm to people than good. Remember even those who believe they are being used for good can actually be used to deceive and not even know it. Careful how you handle the Word of Truth. I know this will upset you, but ask for the Lord to keep you humble and you will be. Keep Seeking.
WOW very well said!!! VERY VERY WELL SAID!!!
Hey, thanks everybody for the comments on this post. It's an important issue and I'm glad you've taken the time. A few notes, as I've been absent due to time constraints:
1. While I do disagree with those who use religion to bash LGBT people (figuratively or physically), I really think it's beside the point. Let's pull it back to questions of civil law.
2. Janice Langbehn and Lisa Pond had every bit of legal protection possible. Lisa's Living Will, her Durable Power of Attorney, and her children's birth certificates were explicitly ignored for HOURS by hospital staff. The same hospital staff gave immediate information and access to Lisa's sister with no paperwork to show familial or legal relationship. To me, this is the heart of the issue.
3. Please read the comments tips linked to at the top of the comments section. Here's another link for your convenience.
4. “Name” is what Disqus displays when a commenter doesn't fill in her/his name. They're working on it.
5. But while we're talking about it, how about signing up for a Disqus account? It's free, it's fast, and it makes the discussion a little more personal. If not a Disqus account, you can log in with your facebook, twitter, yahoo, or even your openID account.
cglennh, as a fellow Christian and as the owner of this site, I'm telling you to step back. You will not insult or demean people here because they believe differently than you do, and you certainly won't do it in the name of God.
You are welcome to continue the discussion if you can keep a civil tongue.
This story was about a family who has suffered not a religious battle!!! It seems like everytime i read an article about a gay,lesbian or trans person there are always ppl arguing and throwing in their religion. I know everyone has their own opioin(sorry cant spell) but damn just once can we have a discussion about what the article was about and not about god. God is supposed to love everyone and forgives ppl but u ppl make that hard to believe. Stop trying to push ur beliefs on others and focus on whats really going on
Matt -
You're telling me to step back? I agree that I will not insult or demean people based on different beliefs. I haven't. I have spoken the truth from the Word of God and as a “fellow Christian” you propogate the enabling of disatisfaction with the Lord. Who's 'name' should I use then? Yours? Mine? Insufficient – what have you done for the world? What life have you sacrificed? “You call me teacher and Lord and you do right, for this is who I am;” “There is no other Name under heaven, given unto man, by which we must be saved”. The name of Jesus is all we have. As a fellow Christian you don't get to call the playing field fair – you like myself have to submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ or you stand for nothing. You have a foolish understanding of 'ownership'! You own nothing. Everything in a Christians life belongs to Christ. If He truly lives in you, then He makes the decisions, He decides! If you are the owner, then you choose who gets to say what and who get to post comments. And you reach into the homes of people and bless them or curse them. Give it back to the Lord Jesus and let Him have the ownership rights of your life – your whole life! Even this so-called 'helpful' site. I shall keep a Scriptural tongue above an earthly 'civil' tongue. We have no civil rights under the Lordship of Jesus. Jesus doesn't break the Law. Why would he offer a civil right? He gave us no rights. He lives through us and therefore He doesn't break the law. Show your 'manly' faith without works (in your life, words, testimony) and I'll show you my faith with works. My testimony confesses Christ Jesus as Lord, “the way, truth and the life – no other way to heaven, but by living according to My commands”. Jesus cannot be trumped. Stop spreading falseness of all kinds. I stand on the Word of God in all I say, comment and reproduce – I don't make stuff up according to my wants and desires and then find a verse in the Bible that partially supports MY ideas. I look to the Word of God and then simply explain it according to its meaning. Not my meaning. What have I said – in support for the Lord Jesus Christ – against anyone here that is demeaning or insulting. They are insulted and demeaned in and of themselves due to their inability to be obedient to the Life of Jesus. Withstood!
The 70's came and went with it's Love one love all complications. It's not about marriage. It is about upholding the policies of the facility. There have been children go missing due to policies being ignored, women being killed due to policies being changed, men set free from prison due to someone overlooking the policy, husbands refused child visitation rights due to someone not following laws and policies.
If we just drop the rules then we live in chaos. Your mother will be allowed to stand at your sons side – she's family. Just due to paperwork and no “blood” relationship they are not family. You would have to define that differently to get something like this passed. Maybe everyone could have a blood transfusion when they get married to individuals of the same sex, then they would have a partial claim to 'blood' relation over and above 'paper' relation. I'm thankful some people aren't allowed in the Hospital to visit regardless of paperwork – as a minister of the gospel of Jesus – I see what happens when policies aren't followed. It only means something to you when it affects you.
Yes, I'm telling you to step back. You may continue to comment if you can
hold a civil conversation.
America and its rules!
However, America didn't make up the rules, God did!
Please be polite as I am being sincere. God established the grounds for marriage between a man and a woman and Himself joining the relationship. If you delete any one of those three members of the Marriage bond then it's not marriage. So, what shall we call it?
America wasn't established on the freedom of religion, but on the freedom of practicing Christian religion. The forefathers didn't establish any form of Christian religion. However, this does mean that it was to be patterned after the Scriptures of God's Holy Word. Jesus being the Savior.
If people are born in America or want to become citizens of this country they would have to understand their grounding was to be in the Word of God as Christians, but free to practice their worship of Jesus without being told how to do it. However; it had to remain faithful to the Word of God.
America wasn't just a melting pot of “doing whatever makes you feel right”. Therefore, if laws and policies were written regarding 'family rights' or 'marriage rights' they were written based on the founding American forefathers after the Word of God. There was nothing else to pattern the laws after.
If LG&H's want to fight for equal rights they must not do it under the facade of “Marriage” but something else. Call it what it is, just don't try to change the foundation upon which Marriage was built. One Man – One Woman – One God. Fight for 'faithful partnerships' or 'really good friends rights'. Why claim marriage and deny the way it was outlined/established in God's Holy Word? So stop the insanity – figure out your opponent – and defeat them. Marriage is not the enemy – Marriage has sustained this world for centuries. One man and one woman with God's blessings have populated this planet time and time again. Now that is impossible with same sex partners. You still need men and women, but now you have to call the children born out of marriage bonds something else. They are still paternally related to a woman and a man – regardless of where they have been raised. However; they are not in the nuclear family or dysfunctional family home of One Man – One Woman – and One God.
Before you comment – reread my comments and read it with sincerity and not malice or anger. I'm not being mean, God has not called me to a ministry of anger but of peaceful living. Let's work together on this, but please don't get angry with me. My heart is honestly seeking the best for these children and this biological/foster mother.
Your beliefs require me to believe in God, which I don't – but I can't say your wrong because I'm the minority in this issue. LG&H's feel the same way. Just because the majority believes a certain way does NOT make it right or just. This country was founded on the beliefs and convictions of the minority and now it turns it's back to it. It's sickening how full of ourselves we've become. Your kind is the worst of it. You should be ashamed to be a human being by using religion as a scapegoat to deny basic human rights and dignities to others.
“God established the grounds for marriage between a man and a woman and Himself joining the relationship. If you delete any one of those three members of the Marriage bond then it's not marriage. So, what shall we call it?”
I don't know, what do you call it when a man and a woman are married in a civil ceremony with no religious elements? The law calls it a marriage, the married couple calls it a marriage, would you presume to tell them they're wrong?
“America wasn't established on the freedom of religion, but on the freedom of practicing Christian religion. The forefathers didn't establish any form of Christian religion. However, this does mean that it was to be patterned after the Scriptures of God's Holy Word. Jesus being the Savior.”
So if you're not a Christian, you're not a 'real' American? What about all the Americans who are Jews? Or Muslim? Or Buddhist? Or pagan? Or atheist?
“If people are born in America or want to become citizens of this country they would have to understand their grounding was to be in the Word of God as Christians, but free to practice their worship of Jesus without being told how to do it. However; it had to remain faithful to the Word of God.”
So conversion to Christianity is a requirement for US citizenship? That's news to me.
“Why claim marriage and deny the way it was outlined/established in God's Holy Word?”
Marriage has been around a lot longer than your religion. Why do you people insist on claiming sole ownership of it?
“Let's work together on this, but please don't get angry with me. My heart is honestly seeking the best for these children and this biological/foster mother.”
When you insist on treating your fellow human beings as less than yourself, not deserving of the same rights as you enjoy, damn right I'm going to get angry. Stop using your Bible as a shield and own up to your bigotry for what it is.
And if you honestly want what's best for these children, you'll stop telling them that their family isn't as good as yours, and that their parents don't deserve the same rights as you.
Technically, those rules were made up in by a Roman Politician, not the Bible. Not even the Pope. Not even endorsed by the Pope until the 12th century or so. Sexual contact has never been a cut & dried issue. (There are records of Greek debates about what sexual contact was legal vs moral dating back to Homer.)
Biblicaly speaking, marriage is a monetary contract. The wife bears the children, the husband pays to raise them, and the dowry to marry the daughter off. It is between a man and as many wives as he can afford.
It is also a political contract. Kings give their daughter's to powerful neighbors to cement alliances and prevent wars.
The definition of marriage is today what it has always been. Political.
The fight should NOT be to make Religion change, it should be to take Religion out of the process. (as far as concerned for taxes and other legal functions.)
Paragraph by paragraph:
1) The United States is a nation of Laws, not rules.
2) These laws were made by elected representatives, not any god.
3) You may be sincere, but you are wrong.I disagree with your premise that a marriage requires exactly one man, one woman, and one god. A marriage is made up of two people who enter into a specific type of contract.
4) The United States was established by the U.S. Constitution. Part of that Constitution is the amendments to it. The first amendment , among other things, established freedom of religion. That means the right to believe in one, many or no gods, and the right to worship or not worship as one sees fit. This right even protects you, because it gives you the right to be wrong. There is nothing in the Constitution that makes this a christian nation. In fact, the first amendment prohibits this country from having any official religion or faith
5) I am an American citizen, and I do not have to be a christian, I do not have to worship Jesus, and I do not have to believe that anyone knows the word of any god. I challenge you to prove that what you believe to be the word of god is indeed that, and not a bunch of stories that were collected over some span of time. You can't. Because if you could, what you have would not be faith, it would be knowledge.
6) America is a melting pot of cultures, religions, skin tones, and much more. The laws of this land are based on English law and English common law, with some exceptions. This is what they are patterned after. The word of god has nothing to do with it, by law.
7) You've got something right here; marriage is not the enemy, it's the goal. The right to marry, with mutual consent, the person of one's choice. Perhaps the government should get out of the business of recognizing marriage and leave marriage as a religious word. Then, using freedom of religion, people could recognize, or not recognize any relationship they wished as a marriage. All current marriages would be recognized by the government as civil unions. But I don't see that happening. So my government denying any couple the right to marry hurts me, whether I am homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, asexual, or any other possible sexual orientation. And it hurts you. Why? Because when rights are denied based on classification, any classification becomes a valid reason to deny rights. The enemy is bigots who cannot see that letting others marry as they want does not hurt anyone. If it turns out that you are right and God does not want same sex couples to marry, you are still fine, because no one is forcing you to marry someone of your gender. If God does not want same sex couples to marry, then they will not be married in God's eyes. Oh, and in case you hadn't noticed, it doesn't take a marriage to make children, and it doesn't take children to make a marriage. And, scientifically speaking, it actually does not require a man and a woman to make a child. One ovum, and some DNA to fertilize it, possibly from another ovum. Come to think of it, religiously, it doesn't require a man and a woman to make a child. According to that word of god you talk about, Jesus was a virgin birth. No man involved. And do you really believe that children are better in a dysfunctional family than they would be with two loving parents, even if they are of the same gender? Perhaps you need to learn the meaning of dysfunctional. The definition of nuclear family is two parents and their minor children. Unless you really do mean that a nuclear family must be biologically related, in which case adopted children are not part of a nuclear family. For a woman to be paternally related to a male requires that either the male is her father, or they have the same father. For two females to be paternally related requires them to have the same father. So a woman's child should never be be paternally related to her.
8) You really don't want what is best for anybody. What you want is to be able to feel that you are better than some people. The good news is that even when same sex marriage is legalized everywhere in the United States, you can still feel superior. You just won't have the law to help you. Your post shows much ignorance, bigotry, and lack of education. Which is good, because if you open your mind and learn you will give up your ill-formed ideas. If you think it through, you will realize that to believe in a perfect God requires that you believe that God does not make mistakes. So if God makes a person gay or lesbian, that is not a mistake. For you to give such a person less rights than others is for you to not love part of God's plan. And that is to not love God. So, since I am a God loving man, I will pray for God to open your heart and turn you away from this path of evil. And now I will sign this with my real name, something I noticed you did not do.
— Brian E. Starke
Sir, I will try not to reply to your comment with malice or anger here. But I simply must respond with both a question, and a comment backed up by several quotations.
My question is: What do you think should have happened in this situation? Do you think that it was just and fair that this woman was denied seeing her partner on her deathbed? Do you think it was just that the children were denied seeing her?
My comment is simply that I think it is an incorrect generalization to say that our country was founded on the freedom of practicing Christian religion. The whole idea of freedom of religion in this country is that you should be free to practice your religion–whatever it is–as long as it does not get in the way of other people's basic rights.
Here are some quotations from our founding fathers to back me up:
“…the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State” James Madison, Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819
“”I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.” -Benjamin Franklin
“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” George Washington, Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes” Thomas Jefferson, Letter to von Humboldt, 1813
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
Atheist heterosexual couples are allowed to be married and have full rights under the law. This makes marriage a civil right an institution by the state,not a religious right. People of other religions that do not believe in your God or Jesus Christ are allowed to be married. Religious is a personal issues keep it in YOUR CHURCH and YOUR HOME. Do Not Tread on my civil rights or interfere with my religious beliefs.
Regards God_Loves_Me_Too
Matt, after many years of trying and with this terrible news, I will finally give in to the heterosexual community and say….yes …I HATE YOU !!! How does that feel? Hate must be a family value, because heteros brought us into this world and taught it to us so well……Glad we can finally agree on one thing.
What part of judge not less you be judged, do you not understand? And The marriage ceremony and/or vows is not even in the Bible.
GOD, GOD ,GOD….you must realize that choosing to believe that there is a God is nothing more than that; a believe, called faith. Imagine for a moment that there is no God. That after all you are wrong , that you choosed to believe a lie, a false……Then what? Would it be ok then to allow a human being to experience humaness, compassion, love towards one another at the time of departure from this human world? How would under any circumstances a true God say ; “no, you cannot be human and show love”. I accept people that say “I Am a bigot” much better than one that uses God as an excuse to hide his/her bigotry.
You can hide your willing ignorance and hatred behind your cult called religion, you are doing exactly what the cowards of the taliban do. Gay and Lesbian people have had enough of your bigotry and we won't all allow our rights to be trampled on any longer. How you can justify this? It is a disgraceful show of inhuman and undignified behavior and a clear violation of the constitutional and human rights of this family. God didn't make any rules; just like the story of god they were written by humans and they are wrong.
I dont believe this has anything to do with god. If you put all of the legal matters aside…would you want to die alone? Would you want your children whom were legally recognized as your own, to not have a chance to say goodbye to you? You can preach god, and what he intended to be a “legal” marriage. But god would never want one of his children to die alone. And he would never want any of his children to not have the oppertunity to say good bye to their mother. I should have the right to have -whom ever- I want at my side when Im dying. Without considering sexual orientation. I should also be allowed to put anyone Id like in charge of my last wishes. I have the legal right to establish my own power of attorny. No one has the right to ignore my wishes that are spelled out and clearly defined in a legal document. This judge should be ashamed of himself. He allowed the law to be broken, simply because of his own biast!
You can hide your willing ignorance and hatred behind your cult called religion, you are doing exactly what the cowards of the taliban do. Gay and Lesbian people have had enough of your bigotry and we won't all allow our rights to be trampled on any longer. How you can justify this? It is a disgraceful show of inhuman and undignified behavior and a clear violation of the constitutional and human rights of this family. God didn't make any rules; just like the story of god they were written by humans and they are wrong.
I dont believe this has anything to do with god. If you put all of the legal matters aside…would you want to die alone? Would you want your children whom were legally recognized as your own, to not have a chance to say goodbye to you? You can preach god, and what he intended to be a “legal” marriage. But god would never want one of his children to die alone. And he would never want any of his children to not have the oppertunity to say good bye to their mother. I should have the right to have -whom ever- I want at my side when Im dying. Without considering sexual orientation. I should also be allowed to put anyone Id like in charge of my last wishes. I have the legal right to establish my own power of attorny. No one has the right to ignore my wishes that are spelled out and clearly defined in a legal document. This judge should be ashamed of himself. He allowed the law to be broken, simply because of his own biast!
The God I love and worship doesn't want helpless women to die alone because of a couple of petty rednecks try to put words into his mouth.
God didn't write the vows for marriage – man did that. However, no matter what you say, God instituted marriage.
Others believe God wouldn't allow someone to die alone – Jesus did! He was alone. No one wanted to be on the cross with Him. God would rather you die alone but have His Son in your life. All of your words bring suffering and death. You mock God and act as if you know more than Him.
God will punish us all. Just because I follow Him doesn't matter – Because of your sin – Open and exposed without guilt – He will punish us all. Your children will suffer. Your families will suffer. My prayers don't make this happen – God's Word does. He will bring judgment upon us all. You care more about each other than you do about how God looks upon you. Continue to complain and gripe – a man who doesn't recognize the Lord as Lord will face His wrath.
You bring this upon us. 1 Cor. 6 – “homosexuals, male prostitutes (Sodomites) . . . shall NOT inherit the kingdom” Go ahead and complain and hate me for these words – however; you don't hate me – you hate God!
Judge not lest ye be judged – those of you that know not what the word says, 1 Cor. 5 tells us to Judge those inside the church (brothers and sisters in Christ) – those outside the body of Christ (Those who don't believe in Jesus) God will judge. I do not judge you – God does. I pray for you that you would let your hearts be changed. You will face more than you can bear at the hands of God.
Call me ignorant, shallow minded, cruel – I've been called to a ministry of peace – which can't be accomplished with sin in the world. I do know that the Lord will continue to bring calamity (911 towers to the ground) (Katrina) (Rita) (Soldiers in Iraq being killed) (Many disasters) Just keep ignoring Him. He'll continue bringing this upon us.
Shame on us all. . .
THANK YOU! FINALLY SOMEONE WHO READS!
Brian -
Thank You well put
Biblically, the first couple was created together and then separated. It wasn't about the Romans pollution of facts. It happened creation week.
Personally, I think it is unconstitutional to deny marriage among any members of society. I think it is a mistake for people who think they are defending any religion (because it isn't just Xtians) to fight it and call out the name of God, because it undermines the name of God and the concept of freedom of religion— which is hugely important to us all if we are to be allowed to follow individual conviction.
However, like anything else it takes time. The trouble comes in when there is an effort to seek full acceptance in addition to inclusion. These efforts amount to the same levels of indoctrination as occurs in bigoted environments.
I am appauled by this tale. Unfortunately, this sort of thing happens all over the US, to anyone who is deemed 'unfit'.
People should take the advice of the One who is looking for us all and give up on cruelty, judgement, and double standards. (check out proverbs) This shouldn't happen in a country that was REALLy about free life… not just one concept of religious service.
And to the pastor, I think it is very interesting that so many who join ranks with him pick the 1 text calling male on male sex an abomination from the Torah and conveniently skip the laws of healthy living– laws that describe foods that should not be eaten (pork, shellfish, blood and fat) and the sabbath being on saturday, NOT on sunday. If these things are 'nailed to the cross' then so are the various sexual prohibitions. Neither of them are.
I also think it is interesting that they don't rally against lying, which is also called an abomination.
I think it is taking the Lord's name in vain, when one uses Him to bash someone He isn't trying to bash.
Anyway, that's a lot of rambling. You guys, keep looking up. God is not absent.
God doesn't punish “Johnny” for what “Jennifer” does. He doesn't do this because God believes in real, loving justice. This means that everything comes into account, including feelings, desires, hopes, intent— everything we can't see.
Besides this, trouble comes on the world because of the deterioration of the world based on the continuation of the sinful nature. Hateful people do hateful things = twin towers or this social worker.
God is out there working to save people, to heal them, to bring them Light and power and Love…
The command is to 'come out of her' (meaning the destructive system, characterized as babylon). Bad things will happen,,, just as when there is a persistent recession there is an increase in crime and acts of violence. If you want to get away from the problems in a depressed city, you work to improve conditions or you leave the city. You don't tell people God is punishing them.
If you love your children and give them good things, what do you think He gives to His children? I wish you guys would stop characterizing Him as some kind of furious beast. God is awesomely complex, beautiful and tender… you don't just give up your life for nothing… it takes a lot of passionate love…
If you re-read Matt's post, you'll find that what he's saying is that the people who claim that a 'civil union' or a 'domestic partnership' should satisfy all those who want actual marriage, are wrong. That they do not equal the legal standing of marriage. We need to let people who love each other, are willing to dedicate their lives to each other, who share childrearing and all the rest of the plate of marriage, be allowed to *be* married.
In reply to “pastorchurch”–
“However, no matter what you say, God instituted marriage.”
No matter what you say, 2+2=247! That's what they told me! So I'm not listening to you, I'm not listening!
“I've been called to a ministry of peace – which can't be accomplished with sin in the world.”
What kind of god calls people to a ministry that can't be accomplished? Or better yet, what kind of person feels the need to follow a god like that.
“Call me ignorant, shallow minded, cruel.”
Okay. You are ignorant, shallow-minded, and cruel! And I used to be you. I used to think I had all the answers to every moral question. I used to think “they” were wrong about everything. Now I see “them.” And “they” are just people. And I get so angry at myself because I never heard “them.” Now I'm one of “them.” And every time I hear from one of you and you try to send me to hell because I don't believe you anymore, I think “what goes around comes around.” I did it to other people for years and now it's coming back to me. I just hope when it comes back to you, you are able to see it for what it is and not let it crush you.
Everyone's just doing the best they can.
Even you, believe it or not.
It's just too bad your best belittles everyone else's.
So, those of us that marry (one man – one woman) with out the involvement of your god….what do you consider us?
This was the most horrid crime i have ever had the displeasure of reading. Ihad teers in my eyes reading this story out load to my mother, who feels the same as i do. I hate to sound like a horrible person for writing this, but this is how i feel. I am a person that believes in revenge that hospital has no right to deny visitation to anyone and I hope and pray that every staff member that denied this women the right to see her dieing lover loses a loved one…I know it wont solve anything but that is just how i feel.
I dont think these people are “getting” Matt's post…
“America wasn't established on the freedom of religion, but on the freedom of practicing Christian religion.”
That is bullshit! Almost all of the founding fathers were outspoken in their anti-church views. People came to America to escape religious persecution.
“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.” – John Adams
“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. ” – Thomas Jefferson
“”Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.” – Ben Franklin
oops! put the reply in the wrong place Doh!
And my head is hurting trying to read your post.
to Rob-
Actually, the Puritans came here not because they were being presecuted, but ridiculed. everyone was having a gay (pardon the reference) old time in Europe and the Puritans were peeved by it. However, everyone was having such a good time no-one was listening to them. They wanted to find space to be extremists. They were granted the money and supplies to go, basically, because no-one minded the uppity neighbor moving out of the neighborhood.
Then you're lost. But not without hope. According to Scripture, Jesus died on the cross, was buried, and rose again the third day, according to the Scriptures” “For if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved!” Do this and start living according to His word – you will see clearly then.
Thanks for the cite, here's what's going on:
- Keep in mind this trial was not to determine how right or wrong the hospital’s actions were. It was a lawsuit where the plaintiffs (the woman’s family) was trying to get money to compensate for the injury done to them. Basically, it was dismissed because the court determined there was no “injury” to the plaintiffs that was recognized under Florida law. It may be sad, it may be morally wrong, but it wasn’t LEGALLY wrong, so therefore the court can’t take money from the hospital and give it to the widowed partner.
Also, the problem is not regarding gay rights, it’s regarding patient’s rights. They should have sued under a civil rights claim in my opinion, that would have framed the issue in the family’s favor.
- The hospital workers and doctors were immune from tort claims under Florida law. It’s common for government agencies and their employees to be immune to this type of suit. I’m not saying that’s a good thing, but it’s a settled matter of law. If enough people don’t like it, they can have their legislature vote for a change in the law. A way the lawyer might be able to get around that would be to allege discrimination. But they did not. Mistake 1 by the plaintiff’s lawyer.
- Once the hospital got the power of attorney, they included the partner in all the decisions and informed her of all relevant issues, as required by law. She dies, sadly, without the doctors able to do anything to save her. The partner agreed with their recommendations and did not ask for any different treatment than what she received. So, since they were suing for “damages” there is no issue here. Nothing different happened because of the hospital’s actions.
- The partner did not allege that her lack of visitation impacted the outcome of the treatment in any way. If she had, that would have been a matter-of-fact, and that might have at least gotten the case to a jury, who would have been sympathetic and ignore the law in favor of the grieving family. That was another bad tactical decision on the part of the attorney.
Another way it could have gotten to the jury was to allege that the denial of visitation was based on her sexual orientation, which I think is a case that might be plausible. At least enough to get it to a jury trial. Again, bad attorney.
There is more to this case but I think those observations are enough to show it isn’t a matter of a court hating gays. It’s a combination of patients rights being sucky in Washington and a lazy attorney for the family.
Florida rather
The “Word of God” states that Solomon had 300 wives and 700 concubines, but doesn't seem upset by it. It also asserts that Abraham and Sarah were brother and sister (had the same father), and they were looked on favorably enough by God that they were the progenitors of his Chosen People. Are either of these two examples of marriage as defined by the “Word of God” somehow better or more valid than two women who have loved each other for the great majority of their adult lives and raised 4 children together in a stable relationship? Feh. Ignorant bigot.
Dear pastor….
I am a christian, though not of your catholic religion denomination. I am of one that doesn't thrive on pure profit and money alone. We don't have a Vatican that holds the largest amount of pornography in it. We don't have priest that molest alter boys. But that's really not what we are here to discuss, now is it? Heck, my bible doesn't look the same as yours or many others I have seen.
Bottom line….we do believe in the same God. What disturbs me most about your posts is your judgemental nature.
No offense…..but we as humans have no rights to judge others. That is God's job….and God's job alone. As a man of God, as you call yourself…..I would think you of all people would know this.
Pastorchurch, I too am a pastor of a church. One serving the GLBT community. You definition of marriage closely resembles the Roman Catholic understanding of the SACRAMENT of marriage which they have every right to define as they wish. However, the word marriage itself and the social institution it represents in not limited to sacramental marriage or even religious marriage as you define it.
Take the Gospel itself. When Jesus is confronted with the question of divorce, he says “a man who divorces his wife and <marries> another commits adultery.” So you have Jesus using the name marriage to describe an adulterous relationship which is clearly not what God intended as the marriage you describe: man + woman + God. Jesus acknowledges that the relationship of two people who are bound together by society's law is called marriage.
Surely if society agrees to bind two people of the same sex together legally, we can use the societal term of marriage. I am not saying that I believe that God is not part of a same-sex marriage, because I do believe God can be the one who binds a man to a man or a woman to a woman til death do them part.
The only way anything gets changed in the US, is a very big fat lawsuit! I hope this entire family will fight back forcefully. They had all the paperwork legally accepted in the US for such a case and still were treated like second class citizens. Let this go all the way to the Supreme Court, it is the only way anything will ever change. Hoping for change is useless, we will all be dead and buried by then. Fight like hell and change what needs to be changed, in the courts , that is where it will happen.
@Mr. Starke, well said.
That aside. I find this situation infuriating, I want to know who to call, where to email. Clearly the hospital acted fully within the letter of the law, hence the case is not even heard (please tell me there is an appeal or something) but even in state where the law is clear there is still considerable discretion of the institution to allow access. That this hospital did not do so is REPREHENSIBLE.
I just saw this link on my sons facebook – how sad. I agree with you, love is love regardless of gender, race, education etc. Hopefully, Florida will get on band wagon with Massachusetts and other states and even IOWA. God Bless you Janice and your famly.
I hope you and your lovely children are healing, this story makes me terribly sad as does the misdirection of the discussion.
So if I'm Hindu, and I get married in America, then what? Or would you rather that all of us who don't believe as you do be kicked out of America? Or can we stay, but just be second class citizens to you and your christian brethren, where our marriages aren't accepted by the courts, and our ways are not tolerated. Perhaps we should all wear some sign on out clothes to let you know you are not dealing with one of your own. Would that make you happy?
Screw your god and your church. If there was a god and there isn't this would not be happening. It makes me sick when cults such as yours uses religion as a prime excuse for ignorance, hatred and fear. Remember pastor dude man created god and you've all created situations like this one.
Mark 10:6 (NKJV) “But from the beginning of the creation, God `made them male and female.' 7 `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 `and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9 “Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
The term for marriage is not the same term used in the greek here for 'marries another'. Marriage is a Holy Union performed by God. The 'marries another' is Aorist Active Subjunctive – Beginning in the past – decided and acted upon by the individual in the relationship without God – and completely decided on his own. God is not involved in the 'marries another' relationship. His use of the term 'marries another' is not the same as Marriage.
The term for 'joining together' is proskollathasetai. This is what God referred to in the book of Genesis when He brought the woman to the man and like Jesus referred to here in the New Testament quoting the Old Testament – 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be Joined Together'
Study your Hebrew and Greek and don't rely upon the translation your using. Marriage was not a social institution: it was a Holy Union performed by God. You
Type your reply…Matt 19:9 (NKJV) “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.” The last part of this translation is Not included in the greek language. However the terms are not the same. And it was not this way from the beginning, beginning, beginning, beginning, (where it started, came from, originated).
Yes Solomon had many “strange women”. The word Marriage is not use here. Read the passage in 1 Kings 11:1-14 and see just how upset God was with Solomon that He brought adversaries against him. It even states in the “Word of God” that this “displeased the Lord greatly”. So no this union with many 'wives' was not Holy before God and therefore; was no greater than two women who have loved each other for the great majority of their adult lives and raised 4 children together in a stable relationship. Solomon was wrong just as those who choose 'marry another of the same sex'. Read Matt 19:9.
The gates of Hades shall not prevail . . . Never will it become extinct. Nietzsche however died and is still dead. Jesus is alive and sitting at the right hand of the Father.
My happiness doesn't matter. God is displeased and marriage doesn't exist between 1 man and 1 woman if God is not involved – nothing has been joined together by God. If a Hindu get married in America doesn't matter. America doesn't make someone a Christian. We are ALL second class citizens in America. We didn't make this land nor did we start here. We are all descendents of immigrants. Second class to the Natives. But Marriage is a Holy Union performed by God. Take one of the following away: man, woman, God and put something else in its place, then no marriage.
Just as Christ wants us all to be at the 'wedding supper of the lamb'. Only those who Trust Jesus as the Way, Truth & Life will be in attendance. If Jesus lives in you – then you would practice God's word as He would. He said, “For this reason, God created them male and female” that a man shall leave his father and mother and be 'joined' to his wife. Has nothing to do with nationality.
I agree that religion spoils everything. Church is not spelled C-U-L-T. God says when you don't like His church then yes, you are sick. So you respond correctly.
Here's the thing. I absolutely disagree with just about everything that “pastorchurch” has posted, but I also really disagree with what you posted.
I also understand that it's the atmosphere of fear and hate generated by people like “pastorchurch” that causes the vitriol that some people have against Christianity. In other words, I disagree with what you're saying, but I understand why you feel that way. Sometimes I feel that way too. I hope that makes sense.
And with that, I'm closing comments on this post. We're so far afield that it's offensive to the real substance of this post, and I don't think there's anything new to be said.
Thanks everybody for your comments!
Here's the thing. I absolutely disagree with just about everything that “pastorchurch” has posted, but I also really disagree with what you posted.
I also understand that it's the atmosphere of fear and hate generated by people like “pastorchurch” that causes the vitriol that some people have against Christianity. In other words, I disagree with what you're saying, but I understand why you feel that way. Sometimes I feel that way too. I hope that makes sense.
And with that, I'm closing comments on this post. We're so far afield that it's offensive to the real substance of this post, and I don't think there's anything new to be said.
Thanks everybody for your comments!
edit from Matt: Read the rules, boobear.
Anyone who claims to know the ways of any mystical being is flawed in their thinking. These people promote hate against anything they deem to be unworthy. The bible is full of contraction in and of itself, and to leave that to interpretation is just very open ended. Just keep in mind that even Hitler thought he was doing the right thing when he moved a nation to murder countless innocents, Jewish, homosexual, heretics to the popular doctrine and countless others who were different. It's normal for people to fear what they do not understand and try to back their hatred and fear up with something they pull from a religious text. They use the tried and true, if you don't believe what I believe you are wrong and sinful in the eyes of whatever name their present god is using, or they use… If you're not with us you're against us.
What all of these people need to understand there is nothing in this world or any other realm that is black and white, there are many many shades of gray in between.
Sadly what all of this boils down to is saying that one person's pain is less than another's pain because of their skin, ethnicity, culture, and sexual orientation.
I thank God that when my partner had a stroke we were living in San Diego. I had full access to his bedside for the week he spent in ICU and in his room when he was finally transferred to a regular room. The staff was wonderful to me and kept me informed on all of his treatments. Had we been living in Phoenix, where we later moved for employment, none of this would have been possible. I hope the hospital is, in some way, found at fault for the emotional pain they have caused this poor woman. This horror they put this woman through is just like a hate crime. Laws must be changed to protect Gay men and women NATIONWIDE and not just in cities or states here and there. It would be wonderful to see the same laws changed world wide but that will never happen since in some countries being Gay is punishable by death. What a world we live in!
Please allow me to add my bitter angry responce to this story. as a straight man, I am wholly flabbergasted at the treatment this woman and her family recieved from the hands of that hospital, its staff and its bigoted policies. And the the judge to just meekly give his offical okay doky to it is completely outragous. It does not matter what a persons sexual preference is when it comes to dying. A straight dies just the same way as a gay does. I noticed something…even though they refused to honor the living will..they did honor the organ donar directive. Since when do hospitals get to pick and choose which directive they will honor????
Please allow me to add my bitter angry responce to this story. as a straight man, I am wholly flabbergasted at the treatment this woman and her family recieved from the hands of that hospital, its staff and its bigoted policies. And the the judge to just meekly give his offical okay doky to it is completely outragous. It does not matter what a persons sexual preference is when it comes to dying. A straight dies just the same way as a gay does. I noticed something…even though they refused to honor the living will..they did honor the organ donar directive. Since when do hospitals get to pick and choose which directive they will honor????
was it not made clear I am an escort who protects women from violent religious nuts at our local clinic? There is nothing wrong with menstruation or a sponteneous mis-carriage and a therapeutic or elective abortion is no different…. women must be free to choose and get Medicaid paid abortions if they are poor….only willing healthy moms should choose to risk the dangers of pregnancy, no single woman should be forced to stay pregnant for any reason
I am very sorry you are too stupid to learn and feel free to threaten me with your alleged deity… your book is illegal to mail and it took President McKinley to pardon CC Moore out of prison for the crime of mailing obscene bible verses and you quote such a pornographic English version of this genocidal anti-woman madness in print?
your never ever lived so called baby god had to be born 4 BCE as Herod died 2014 years ago, so your fake Jeebus does not even have a correct calendar to back your fictional story up….. your religious story includes the claim which does not exist in history, Herod does, of the killing of all 2 year old babies just to get at the one alleged King of the Jews born allegedly in that year. Herod could not have fulfilled that bible story dead. So maybe if you learn to read reality instead of pornographic anti women fiction, you’ll leave women alone and let lesbians love themselves and their families in peace? Read Hosea 13:16 and Ezekiel 23:20 and tell my how perfect your alleged word of Jehovah Jeebus and Ghost Holes really is. Impeach the Nazi Pimp Pope and sell the Vatican to give the money to the victims of pedophile priests and all those people who die of disease and unwanted pregnancies when the Catholics deny a billon people balloons for their penis or vagina
My name is Larry, not Job, so your bible threats are still stupidly false and no single prayer has ever been answered by your alleged Jehovah nor ever will, because Pinnochio is just as false a story as Jeebus and virgin Miriam, so much for your alleged god of love and miracles that have never saved a single victim or invented a single bit of science
your impotent Jehovah created anything? So why does your Jehovah create babies with both a penis and a vagina? Ovaries inside a scrotum full of eggs, not sperm? Why does your Jehovah create Siamese Twins, some horribly hafl connected with no brain or no full set of organs? Why did your Jeebus create some women with so much testosterone they grow darker beards than mine? Why does your Ghost Holes create men with so much estrogen, they smell a man a mile a way and can not help to wish a mating with a man like some women are drawn by their nose to start a family? Get real you stupid bigot. The KJbible is a fake book full of lies and impossible crap. Read Hosea 13:16 or Ezekiel 23:20 and tell me how Pro-life or sexually correct your alleged deity is on instructing people why they are pregnant or have sex with animals? You are a most disgusting thing to pretend you’ve read that pornographic book and claim it should be forced on kind loving couples of any sex… human love is defined by lovers, not hate filled alleged deity believers
and you are so cruel to think that the hospital would not arrest her for kicking a door? The cruel staff is just as guilty as you if you do not fight the entire system as illegal and anti-human
your lie is proof that you were not around “always” as people have loved each other in private for all time, it is your hate filled ignorant religion that tries to force rape and disease on others denying them condoms or abortions if they don’t want disease or pregnancy, there is no lord, your alleged deity is an insane idea in your bigoted head… you don’t even know what the word “sin” means, you just blather on what you heard in your cult buildings, you don’t read your sick twisted bible…. Hosea 13:16 or Ezekiel 23:20 just 2 of thousands of obscene deadly stupidities of your faith, leave women along and soon all 50 states will protect lovers from your evil religion of falsehoods and attacks upon science
I am sorry most of the responses are from hate filled xians, people on the side of this evil hospital…. you are most welcome and I know many people who stand with you, call me anytime if I can share any ideas that might help 843-926-1750 Larry Carter Center
looks like most people replied with hate, not love, obviously I rarely comment, when I do, I don’t let the creeps go unanswered
That’s well and good, but I would ask that you re-read the site comment rules. They can be found here. Please adhere to those standards in future comments.
Thanks.